Prove the claim..

[Elijah John]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

Then prove that the Bible actually claims that Jesus is God with the same clarity as the Bible states that "YHVH is God". (Isaiah 45.5)

OR demonstrate in some other reasonable way that "Jesus is God".

If you cannot do this, then why do so many Christians persist in claiming others are hell-bound for NOT believing that "Jesus is God"?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 24 by ttruscott]

A confusing viewpoint. If people were chosen before they were born, God would be showing himself to be a big game-player....a charade artist. He tells everyone that they must CHOOSE who they want to worship, and yet you say some were already "elected" to be saved? I don't think so.

Your are disagreeing with yourself as you do not present what I believe at all. Yes, HE tells everyone to choose and AFTER they have all separated themselves into two groups by faith, that is, those who by their free will put their faith in HIS claims to be our creator GOD and in HIS promise of salvation from all future sin were separated from all those who by their free will put their faith in the idea that he was a false god and a liar, and as the first liar he was the Father of lies and creator of sin.

Since this whole event was started to find those in HIS creation who were willing to share a heavenly (perfectly holy and loving) marriage with HIM, once everyone had chose HE elected, that is chose, all those who put their faith in HIM as their GOD to be HIS bride in heaven. Thus the choice came first contrary to your assertion and then election. . THEN the earth was created. I took the long way to get here so it might prove more logical to you and therefore more memorable.

The "foundation of the world" came into existence after Adam rebelled. The world" is the society of humans alienated from God. It is not the planet. Check out I John 2:15-17 to understand what "world" we're talking about when the subject comes up about being chosen before the founding of the world.

Adam disobeyed, thus putting in motion the existence of the world of sinful, alienated humans, starting with Cain. Between the time of Adam's rebellion and the life-course of Cain, that is when God "chose" the co-rulers of Christ. But it was only the GROUP'S existence that God foreordained, not any individuals.

I cannot answer this in this place - it is just too far out.

Oh it's you. I didn't notice, the lack of logic did not twig. Sorry to waste our time. I'll leave it for anyone looking for insight into PCEC.

Excuse me, but what you believe is too far out. Can't wrap my mind around it.

[ttruscott]

Adam was a sinner by his own free will before the earth and garden were created

How could Adam have been a sinner before the earth was created when he was "made out of the dust of the earth"?

JW

His body was made from dust and to dust it will return while he returns to Sheol from whence he was sown. I continually answer your questions but You never try to parse the parable of the good seed for me...Why is that?

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[Replying to post 38 by onewithhim]



onewithhim,

YOUR QUOTE: They BOTH transgressed, TFCI. Eve believed Satan, and then Adam took the fruit even though he knew that Satan lied. The scriptures indicate that Adam rebelled deliberately, and he bears the responsibility because of the headship arrangement; he should have chastened Eve but did not. You seem to think that they didn't know right from wrong, but we believe that a Creator would not put his creations on Earth without telling them what they should do or not do. That is ridiculous. They both knew what would be detrimental to them, and they, in fact, were warned strongly by Jehovah about not touching the one tree.

I am sorry, but once again I am having to correct you. No where in the Adam and Eve narrative does it state that Adam knew that Satan lied before Eve ate from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil, because Adam had yet to learn from good and evil and that Adam rebelled deliberately inferring that he bears responsibility for the Original Sin, nowhere!

What you want to believe in your erroneous statements, and what Yahwehs inspired direct word states, are two mutually exclusive concepts, no matter how ridiculous you want to call your bibles direct words. The headship arrangement that you used out of context was done later when Yahweh punished Eve and all subsequent women with pains in childbirth, and that man shall rule over women henceforth, all because of her transgression of being the impetus of the Original Sin.

Biblical fact, Eve ate first, therefore subsequently knowing from good and evil. Before Adam ate second, he DID NOT KNOW OF GOOD AND EVIL YET, therefore Eve deceived Adam. Subsequently, the blame game started when Adam blames Eve, and Eve blames the talking snake, whether he spoke in Aramaic or Greek, does not matter. ( Genesis 3:12-13).

Bottom line? Eve is the impetus of the Original Sin without any doubt whatsoever, otherwise, do you really want to say that Peter is a liar when he stated: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1 Timothy 2:14)

Onewithhim, I am sorry, but youre guilty of the following godly passage, to wit: For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (2 Timothy 4:3)

[JehovahsWitness]

Adam was a sinner by his own free will before the earth and garden were created

How could Adam have been a sinner before the earth was created when he was "made out of the dust of the earth"?

JW

His body was made from dust and to dust it will return while he returns to Sheol from whence he was sown.

Yes but if Adam was a sinner before the earth was created, that would mean Adam EXISTED before the earth.

We find the dust OF the earth on the earth. So where did God get the dust of the earth to created Adam if there was no earth at the time (because God hadn't yet created it)?

To illustrate: Your statement is like saying "I made my cake in the oven. Before I had an oven.

JW

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[Replying to post 43 by JehovahsWitness]



Jehovah Witness,

YOUR QUOTE: "We find the dust OF the earth on the earth. So where did God get the dust of the earth to created Adam if there was no earth at the time (because God hadn't yet created it)? "

Pssst, if you're going to believe in the Creation Story, then before the Hebrew Christian god Yahweh created man from dust, the earth was already formed for him to do so, remember?; "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." (Genesis 1:2)

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 43 by JehovahsWitness]



Jehovah Witness,

YOUR QUOTE: "We find the dust OF the earth on the earth. So where did God get the dust of the earth to created Adam if there was no earth at the time (because God hadn't yet created it)? "

Pssst, if you're going to believe in the Creation Story, then before the Hebrew Christian god Yahweh created man from dust, the earth was already formed for him to do so, remember?; "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." (Genesis 1:2)

Psst... I think you need to address that point to the person who is claiming that Adam was created BEFORE the earth. That person was not me.

No problem,

JW

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[Replying to post 45 by JehovahsWitness]



Jehovah Witness,

I saw it in the main body of your post that wasn't a quote, therefore I assumed it was yours. Anyway, do you want to address it in any way?

[OnceConvinced]

Onewithhim, I am sorry, but youre guilty of the following godly passage, to wit: For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (2 Timothy 4:3)

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[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 45 by JehovahsWitness]



Jehovah Witness,

I saw it in the main body of your post that wasn't a quote, therefore I assumed it was yours. Anyway, do you want to address it in any way?

No, not really because I do not believe Adam was a sinner before the earth was created. So what could I address? I believe Adam was created (on the earth, out of the "dust from the ground" of the earth) and that many dcades after he had been created, he sinned.

Simple,

JW

[21stCenturyIconoclast]

[quote="JehovahsWitness"]
[quote="21stCenturyIconoclast"]
[Replying to post 45 by JehovahsWitness]



Jehovah Witness,

YOUR QUOTE: "I believe Adam was created (on the earth, out of the "dust from the ground" of the earth) and that many dcades after he had been created, he sinned. Simple"

Since you proffer that your notion is "simple", then can you give us some biblical backing on your premise that subsequent to Eve sinning first, and was the true transgressor, and not Adam, that Adam lived for decades before he actually sinned? I am sure you understand that anything less than biblical proof is just hearsay.

Thanks!


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