JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #662]

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.
Why do you think this?

Just in case it is no longer clear for others that might read this. The question is why do I believe the disciples would understand what Jesus said better than we could today?

For many reasons. They heard Jesus directly. They experienced many of his miracles first hand. Some of them experienced his divinity when he transfigured. We cannot be sure we have Jesus' exact words, and I am sure we do not because we see Jesus says different things in the gospels, though it is the same story. We are far removed from the events and the sayings of Jesus, but the first followers were there. There is a reason that historically the first followers believed in the divinity and the death and resurrection of Jesus. Why would I think anyone today could possible know better what Jesus said?

A - disciples are/were capable of misunderstanding, are/were they not?

that is possible, but Jesus told his disciples that he would send them another comforter, the holy spirit to bring to their remembrance the things said. He knew they would not write down the gospels until many years after his death. So although they could be wrong, they were guided by the holy spirit. Do you think Paul was a true believer?

B - later men who have come along and attempted to interpret what is written are certainly capable of making mistakes (both in their understanding and interpretation; therefore, misleading those who are listening to them) are they not? Indeed, many men have made mistakes and misled others who are listening to them, have they not?

Anyone can make mistakes, but the apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit as Jesus said they would be. I don't know if people claiming to be guided by the spirit today are. Also, they are inline with historical evidence with what the earlier believers believed.

C - Christ is the LIVING Word of God, is He not? The Teacher, yes? He continued to teach His disciples AFTER His death and resurrection and ascension, did He not? Do you suppose that He cannot do so even now? Did He not say that His sheep listen to His voice?

He could do so now, but if that person contradicts the historical evidence, then why should I believe them? Why should I believe any modern person over the first believers?

But what about YOU?

I never said to believe or listen to another person.

I am speaking about listening to Christ, even now.

I did not respond to the rest of your responses above, because it comes down to this. It is not about believing what another person claims; it is about listening to Christ and believing Him. Holding all things up to Him (the Light), testing all things against Him (the Truth).

(If a person cannot yet hear His voice - though if one does want to hear His voice, one can always ask for ears to hear - then at the very least put His words FIRST in what is written; and of course one can and should also test against love, because God is love.)

Paul was one such person that Jesus guided and taught. Paul talks of Jesus' divinity.

Paul does not ever speak of Christ (Jaheshua) of being the Most Holy One of Israel (JAH). No one does. Not even the quotes that you supplied from Aquinas makes that claim.

You are making too many assumptions on things mankind does not fully understand here. Me, I'm just a simple person, and I am just going to go with what Christ teaches, and not worry too much about what men (who lack understanding) claim.

You are a man, yet you trust your own understanding even though it is against historical evidence.

Yes, I am a (wo)man, but no, I do not trust my own understanding. I trust Christ. He Himself. Leaning upon my own understanding has led me into error; but Christ has only ever led me (and anyone else) into truth.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).
That is how the early church fathers understood it.
A - evidence?

From my post in the Jesus is God and why thread.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch (50-117ad) When he was young, he would have known those first followers and what they believed. In his letter to Romans, he says in the opening - https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God,
abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.

Ignatious has not called Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH) in those quotes. There is no issue with calling Christ 'our God', because Mighty God is one of the things He is called (from Isaiah 9:6), and He is the Son of God, and all authority in heaven and on earth have been given to Him by His Father. But His Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel is the ALMIGHTY God.

Christ (Jaheshua) is the Holy One (of Israel and of God).
God (YHWH) is the MOST Holy One of Israel.

Christ is called Mighty God.
His Father is ALMIGHTY God.


Consider also the Temple construct: in order to enter into the MOST Holy (which represents the MOST Holy One: the Father), one must FIRST pass through the HOLY (which represents the HOLY One: the Son). Just as no one comes to the Father except through the Son.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to tam in post #671]

I did not respond to the rest of your responses above, because it comes down to this. It is not about believing what another person claims; it is about listening to Christ and believing Him. Holding all things up to Him (the Light), testing all things against Him (the Truth).

My problem with this kind of thining is that all these bible only types all interpret the bible differently. They contradict each other, so clearly they are not getting their understanding of Jesus.

Paul does not ever speak of Christ (Jaheshua) of being the Most Holy One of Israel (JAH). No one does. Not even the quotes that you supplied from Aquinas makes that claim.

Let's look at Justin Martyr (100-165)

In his Dialogues to Trypho, writing to a Jew to show him that Christ is the king, he says in chapter 135 - https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01289.htm

Justin: And when Scripture says, 'I am the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, who have made known Israel your King,' Isaiah 43:15 will you not understand that truly Christ is the everlasting King?

I am glad you concede that Jesus is our God, now let's see if your move the goalpost more now that Justin Martyr makes it clear that Jesus is the holy one of Israel.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #671]

I did not respond to the rest of your responses above, because it comes down to this. It is not about believing what another person claims; it is about listening to Christ and believing Him. Holding all things up to Him (the Light), testing all things against Him (the Truth).

My problem with this kind of thining is that all these bible only types all interpret the bible differently. They contradict each other, so clearly they are not getting their understanding of Jesus.

I did not say bible-only. I said Christ. He, Himself.

But do you notice that you are still focusing on listening to other men? You said you don't know if a person (today) is led by holy spirit, so that you could not know if they are speaking true or not, but what about the men who came up with the doctrines and interpretations that you do accept? You are still following men. You mentioned a doctrine about Mary earlier. Christ did not speak about that. The apostles did not write of that. Paul did not write of that. No one wrote of or witnesses such a thing until some men made that doctrine much much later.

Same with purgatory (if indeed it is the catholic religion that you are promoting here). That is a doctrine that men came up with much later.

So no matter your objections or how you look at it, you are listening men, men who were not present to hear Christ (in the flesh). Why?

Paul does not ever speak of Christ (Jaheshua) of being the Most Holy One of Israel (JAH). No one does. Not even the quotes that you supplied from Aquinas makes that claim.

Let's look at Justin Martyr (100-165)

Why are we looking at Justin Martyr who was not present when Christ was alive (in the flesh)?

In his Dialogues to Trypho, writing to a Jew to show him that Christ is the king, he says in chapter 135 - https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01289.htm

Justin: And when Scripture says, 'I am the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, who have made known Israel your King,' Isaiah 43:15 will you not understand that truly Christ is the everlasting King?

I'm going to put up another version to make this verse a little more clear (NKJV):

I am [the LORD], your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King."

Please note that scripture does not say what you have written up there and if that is how Justin Martyr wrote it, then he wrote it incorrectly as well. "The Lord" God is not actually a part of scripture. "The LORD" is a placeholder for YHWH (the name of God).

Christ is not [YHWH].

I am glad you concede that Jesus is our God,

NOT [YHWH]. Not ALMIGHTY God. Not the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH(veh). Christ is His HEIR, and again, His Father is the MOST Holy One of Israel, represented by the MOST Holy Place in the Temple; whereas Christ is represented by the HOLY place.

Christ is the Son of God, and the Teacher/Master/Lord whom God (whose name is JAH) sent to us and to whom we are to listen and obey.

, who now let's see if your move the goalpost more now that Justin Martyr makes it clear that Jesus is the holy one of Israel.

I cannot be sure what Justin Martyr is saying from a simple quote, but I can suspect that some are making the mistake of assuming that Lord here refers to Christ, without recognizing that there is actually no "LORD" in that verse at all.


In the above verse, God (YHWH) is speaking to Israel as their King. Remember that Christ is the HEIR of God. Meaning that He inherits all things from His Father - and He was GIVEN all authority and power in heaven and on earth, from His Father.

And when Christ is the Holy One (of Israel, and anything else), His Father is elevated: the MOST Holy One.

Again, the Temple construction was very specific in all its details, because all of its physical details have a corresponding spiritual reality.

The MOST HOLY PLACE = the MOST HOLY ONE.

The HOLY PLACE = the HOLY ONE.

In order to enter into the MOST HOLY, one must first pass through the HOLY; just as Christ has said the same of Him and His Father. In order to come to the Father, one must first pass through Him (Christ).

(Just because a person can be called by some of the same or similar titles as another person, does not make them the same person.)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[kjw47]

[Replying to tam in post #671]

I did not respond to the rest of your responses above, because it comes down to this. It is not about believing what another person claims; it is about listening to Christ and believing Him. Holding all things up to Him (the Light), testing all things against Him (the Truth).

My problem with this kind of thining is that all these bible only types all interpret the bible differently. They contradict each other, so clearly they are not getting their understanding of Jesus.

Paul does not ever speak of Christ (Jaheshua) of being the Most Holy One of Israel (JAH). No one does. Not even the quotes that you supplied from Aquinas makes that claim.

Let's look at Justin Martyr (100-165)

In his Dialogues to Trypho, writing to a Jew to show him that Christ is the king, he says in chapter 135 - https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01289.htm

Justin: And when Scripture says, 'I am the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, who have made known Israel your King,' Isaiah 43:15 will you not understand that truly Christ is the everlasting King?

I am glad you concede that Jesus is our God, now let's see if your move the goalpost more now that Justin Martyr makes it clear that Jesus is the holy one of Israel.

Did you miss this?-1Cor15:24-28--Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself) that is forever-YHWH(Jehovah) is then king of eternity.
The bible shows Jesus kingship is for 1000 years Rev 20:6) After satan and his followers are thrown into the lake of fire-1Cor 15:24-28 takes place.
And one finds in Daniel 7:13-15--Jesus gets appointed as Gods king--God was already king, if Jesus were God he would already have been king and wouldnt have to hand it back. As well there in Daniel, the statement- someone like a son of man-means a created being was given a kingship.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #612]
Then what does Genesis 2:4 mean?

It says Jehovah created the heavens and the earth. Its 100% truth.

What does it mean that Jehovah created them in a "day"?

day
noun: day; plural noun: days

a period of twenty-four hours as a unit of time, reckoned from one midnight to the next, corresponding to a rotation of the earth on its axis.
source: Oxford Languages


_______________________

day
d
Definition of day

1. the time of light between one night and the next

2. the period of rotation of a planet (such as earth) or a moon on its axis

3. the mean solar day of 24 hours beginning at midnight by mean time
source: Merriam Webster


_______________________

day
noun []
us
/de/ uk
/de/

A1: a period of 24 hours, especially from twelve o'clock one night to twelve o'clock the next night:

A2: used to refer to the period in 24 hours when it is naturally light:
source: Cambridge Dictionary


_______________________

day
(de )

Word forms: days
1. countable noun
A day is one of the seven twenty-four hour periods of time in a week.
source: Collins Dictionary


_______________________

Day

Generally, a day is roughly the time of one rotation of the Earth (about 24 hours) or one rotation of other large astronomical objects. In everyday life, the word "day" often refers to a solar day, which is the length between two solar noons or times the Sun reaches the highest point.
source: Wikipedia

_______________________

day
1 [count] : a period of 24 hours beginning at midnight : one of the seven time periods that make up a week

2 : the time of light between one night and the next : the part of the day when light from the sun can be seen
source: The Britannica Dictionary

And if you get it wrong on the test next week don't come running to me.

.

But you haven't explained what Genesis 2:4 means. It says that God created the heavens and earth and everything on it in a day. Can you explain that or do you find it too complicated or perhaps erroneous??

[Miles]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #612]
Then what does Genesis 2:4 mean?

It says Jehovah created the heavens and the earth. Its 100% truth.

What does it mean that Jehovah created them in a "day"?

day
noun: day; plural noun: days

a period of twenty-four hours as a unit of time, reckoned from one midnight to the next, corresponding to a rotation of the earth on its axis.
source: Oxford Languages


_______________________

day
d
Definition of day

1. the time of light between one night and the next

2. the period of rotation of a planet (such as earth) or a moon on its axis

3. the mean solar day of 24 hours beginning at midnight by mean time
source: Merriam Webster


_______________________

day
noun []
us
/de/ uk
/de/

A1: a period of 24 hours, especially from twelve o'clock one night to twelve o'clock the next night:

A2: used to refer to the period in 24 hours when it is naturally light:
source: Cambridge Dictionary


_______________________

day
(de )

Word forms: days
1. countable noun
A day is one of the seven twenty-four hour periods of time in a week.
source: Collins Dictionary


_______________________

Day

Generally, a day is roughly the time of one rotation of the Earth (about 24 hours) or one rotation of other large astronomical objects. In everyday life, the word "day" often refers to a solar day, which is the length between two solar noons or times the Sun reaches the highest point.
source: Wikipedia

_______________________

day
1 [count] : a period of 24 hours beginning at midnight : one of the seven time periods that make up a week

2 : the time of light between one night and the next : the part of the day when light from the sun can be seen
source: The Britannica Dictionary

And if you get it wrong on the test next week don't come running to me.

.

But you haven't explained what Genesis 2:4 means. It says that God created the heavens and earth and everything on it in a day. Can you explain that or do you find it too complicated or perhaps erroneous??

Considering that I was only talking about the definition of "day" this comes pretty much out of left field, but okay. I'll give it a shot.

Genesis 2:4
4 This is the story about the creation of the sky and the earth. This is what happened when the Lord God made the earth and the sky.

Hmmm. . . Not a thing about day. ..Boy, without "day" in the equation I can't explain a thing. Sorry.

Hold on. Perhaps the New International Version mentions "day."

Genesis 2:4
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

Nope. But maybe the Christian Standard Bible says something about day.

Genesis 2:4
These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation. At the time that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Gee whiz, I'm not finding a thing. Are you sure you have the right verse?


.

[kjw47]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #612]
Then what does Genesis 2:4 mean?

It says Jehovah created the heavens and the earth. Its 100% truth.

What does it mean that Jehovah created them in a "day"?

day
noun: day; plural noun: days

a period of twenty-four hours as a unit of time, reckoned from one midnight to the next, corresponding to a rotation of the earth on its axis.
source: Oxford Languages


_______________________

day
d
Definition of day

1. the time of light between one night and the next

2. the period of rotation of a planet (such as earth) or a moon on its axis

3. the mean solar day of 24 hours beginning at midnight by mean time
source: Merriam Webster


_______________________

day
noun []
us
/de/ uk
/de/

A1: a period of 24 hours, especially from twelve o'clock one night to twelve o'clock the next night:

A2: used to refer to the period in 24 hours when it is naturally light:
source: Cambridge Dictionary


_______________________

day
(de )

Word forms: days
1. countable noun
A day is one of the seven twenty-four hour periods of time in a week.
source: Collins Dictionary


_______________________

Day

Generally, a day is roughly the time of one rotation of the Earth (about 24 hours) or one rotation of other large astronomical objects. In everyday life, the word "day" often refers to a solar day, which is the length between two solar noons or times the Sun reaches the highest point.
source: Wikipedia

_______________________

day
1 [count] : a period of 24 hours beginning at midnight : one of the seven time periods that make up a week

2 : the time of light between one night and the next : the part of the day when light from the sun can be seen
source: The Britannica Dictionary

And if you get it wrong on the test next week don't come running to me.

.

But you haven't explained what Genesis 2:4 means. It says that God created the heavens and earth and everything on it in a day. Can you explain that or do you find it too complicated or perhaps erroneous??

1000 years is as a day to God (2Peter 3:8)-- soi believe each day mentioned in Genesis was 1000 of our years.

[DJT_47]

Psalm 45:6-7

6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Psalm 110:1-5

1{A Psalm of David.} The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

[kjw47]

Psalm 45:6-7

6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Psalm 110:1-5

1{A Psalm of David.} The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Fellows=angels--YHWH said to my Lord( Jesus) is correct GOD or LORD does not belong in the OT-YHWH belongs at every spot.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Miles in post #676]

Hmmmmm.....the New American Standard Bible renders Genesis 2:4 as such:

"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the DAY that the LORD God made earth and heaven."

The Douay Confraternity Bible/New Catholic Version:

"These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the DAY that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth."

The Interlinear Bible (in Greek, Hebrew and English):

"These are the births of the heavens and of the earth when they were created in the DAY that Jehovah was making earth and heavens."

Would you like to do a bit more research? Obviously I have many versions that include the fact that God made the heavens and earth in a day. Now explain that, if a day is 24 hours long in all instances.