JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it. No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

Why do you think this?

A - disciples are/were capable of misunderstanding, are/were they not?

B - later men who have come along and attempted to interpret what is written are certainly capable of making mistakes (both in their understanding and interpretation; therefore, misleading those who are listening to them) are they not? Indeed, many men have made mistakes and misled others who are listening to them, have they not?

C - Christ is the LIVING Word of God, is He not? The Teacher, yes? He continued to teach His disciples AFTER His death and resurrection and ascension, did He not? Do you suppose that He cannot do so even now? Did He not say that His sheep listen to His voice?

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

You are making too many assumptions on things mankind does not fully understand here. Me, I'm just a simple person, and I am just going to go with what Christ teaches, and not worry too much about what men (who lack understanding) claim.

The Father brought forth His Son (Christ, the Light, also Wisdom, the firstBORN over all creation).

God = the Father (the MOST Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH)

Christ = the Son (the HOLY One of God and of Israel, whose name is Jah'eshua)


Christ said that He is the Son of God. He never said that He is God (the Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH).


I believe Christ.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it.

A - evidence?

B - by "early church fathers" (I do not know why someone would be called that since the Church is the Body of Christ, with Christ at her head, as her ONE leader, master, teacher), I assume you do not mean the first members of the Church (the apostles, earliest disciples, etc), because you certainly have no evidence that they believed what you claim. And since apostasy and/or error was introduced even in the times that Paul was writing, the phrase 'early church fathers' may not mean as much as you think. In any case, all things should be held up against the LIGHT (the Light who is Christ: His word, His teaching, His example).

No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

Honestly, although it can be interesting to speculate on what these various groups believed based on writings, all people make mistakes, all people and religions teach a mixture of truth and falsehood.

If we want to be led into ALL truth, though, only Christ can do that for us. He is the One who has the words of eternal life, He is and speaks and teaches only truth, and He is the One to whom the Father told us to listen. He is the Shepherd of His sheep.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to tam in post #662]

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.
Why do you think this?

Just in case it is no longer clear for others that might read this. The question is why do I believe the disciples would understand what Jesus said better than we could today?

For many reasons. They heard Jesus directly. They experienced many of his miracles first hand. Some of them experienced his divinity when he transfigured. We cannot be sure we have Jesus' exact words, and I am sure we do not because we see Jesus says different things in the gospels, though it is the same story. We are far removed from the events and the sayings of Jesus, but the first followers were there. There is a reason that historically the first followers believed in the divinity and the death and resurrection of Jesus. Why would I think anyone today could possible know better what Jesus said?

A - disciples are/were capable of misunderstanding, are/were they not?

that is possible, but Jesus told his disciples that he would send them another comforter, the holy spirit to bring to their remembrance the things said. He knew they would not write down the gospels until many years after his death. So although they could be wrong, they were guided by the holy spirit. Do you think Paul was a true believer?

B - later men who have come along and attempted to interpret what is written are certainly capable of making mistakes (both in their understanding and interpretation; therefore, misleading those who are listening to them) are they not? Indeed, many men have made mistakes and misled others who are listening to them, have they not?

Anyone can make mistakes, but the apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit as Jesus said they would be. I don't know if people claiming to be guided by the spirit today are. Also, they are inline with historical evidence with what the earlier believers believed.

C - Christ is the LIVING Word of God, is He not? The Teacher, yes? He continued to teach His disciples AFTER His death and resurrection and ascension, did He not? Do you suppose that He cannot do so even now? Did He not say that His sheep listen to His voice?

He could do so now, but if that person contradicts the historical evidence, then why should I believe them? Why should I believe any modern person over the first believers? Paul was one such person that Jesus guided and taught. Paul talks of Jesus' divinity.

You are making too many assumptions on things mankind does not fully understand here. Me, I'm just a simple person, and I am just going to go with what Christ teaches, and not worry too much about what men (who lack understanding) claim.

You are a man, yet you trust your own understanding even though it is against historical evidence.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).
That is how the early church fathers understood it.
A - evidence?

From my post in the Jesus is God and why thread.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch (50-117ad) When he was young, he would have known those first followers and what they believed. In his letter to Romans, he says in the opening - https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God,
abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.

Also, here is my post if you want to see more church father's saying Jesus is God. [Replying to AquinasForGod in post #145]

[kjw47]

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it. No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

No the early church fathers did not understand it the way you think. The Israelites knew 100% that the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7--Fact-God does not have a God. Thus Catholicism mistranslated Proskenaue as worship to Jesus when obesiance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word for one who has a God in the Messiahs case. It translates to bow and kiss the feet. 5 different meanings from Greek to english-1) worship to God-2) obesiance to a king-3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. There are many errors in Catholicism translating carried over to most translations.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it. No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

No the early church fathers did not understand it the way you think. The Israelites knew 100% that the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7--Fact-God does not have a God. Thus Catholicism mistranslated Proskenaue as worship to Jesus when obesiance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word for one who has a God in the Messiahs case. It translates to bow and kiss the feet. 5 different meanings from Greek to english-1) worship to God-2) obesiance to a king-3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. There are many errors in Catholicism translating carried over to most translations.

You said wrong, but then did not show early church fathers that state otherwise.

[kjw47]

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it. No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

No the early church fathers did not understand it the way you think. The Israelites knew 100% that the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7--Fact-God does not have a God. Thus Catholicism mistranslated Proskenaue as worship to Jesus when obesiance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word for one who has a God in the Messiahs case. It translates to bow and kiss the feet. 5 different meanings from Greek to english-1) worship to God-2) obesiance to a king-3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. There are many errors in Catholicism translating carried over to most translations.

You said wrong, but then did not show early church fathers that state otherwise.

New Catholic encyclopedia, 1967, Vol XIV, Page 299--- The formulation, one God in three persons was not established, certainly not assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith,prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective----( of God as a trinity)

God did not change from the single being Abrahamic God, Catholicism changed him at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. All serving that non existent God( who is really satan posing to get worship) are being mislead into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it. No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

No the early church fathers did not understand it the way you think. The Israelites knew 100% that the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7--Fact-God does not have a God. Thus Catholicism mistranslated Proskenaue as worship to Jesus when obesiance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word for one who has a God in the Messiahs case. It translates to bow and kiss the feet. 5 different meanings from Greek to english-1) worship to God-2) obesiance to a king-3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. There are many errors in Catholicism translating carried over to most translations.

You said wrong, but then did not show early church fathers that state otherwise.

New Catholic encyclopedia, 1967, Vol XIV, Page 299--- The formulation, one God in three persons was not established, certainly not assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith,prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective----( of God as a trinity)

God did not change from the single being Abrahamic God, Catholicism changed him at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. All serving that non existent God( who is really satan posing to get worship) are being mislead into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.

That has to do with the exact formulation of the Trinity. I already quoted the earliest church fathers that all said Jesus is God, and they say it plainly. Jesus our God. Do you have a church father that says Jesus is not God?

[kjw47]

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it. No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

No the early church fathers did not understand it the way you think. The Israelites knew 100% that the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7--Fact-God does not have a God. Thus Catholicism mistranslated Proskenaue as worship to Jesus when obesiance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word for one who has a God in the Messiahs case. It translates to bow and kiss the feet. 5 different meanings from Greek to english-1) worship to God-2) obesiance to a king-3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. There are many errors in Catholicism translating carried over to most translations.

You said wrong, but then did not show early church fathers that state otherwise.

New Catholic encyclopedia, 1967, Vol XIV, Page 299--- The formulation, one God in three persons was not established, certainly not assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith,prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective----( of God as a trinity)

God did not change from the single being Abrahamic God, Catholicism changed him at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. All serving that non existent God( who is really satan posing to get worship) are being mislead into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.

That has to do with the exact formulation of the Trinity. I already quoted the earliest church fathers that all said Jesus is God, and they say it plainly. Jesus our God. Do you have a church father that says Jesus is not God?

I have read the bible many times, not once did they say Jesus our God. The opposite is truth-Jesus teaches he has a God=his Father, just like us-John 20:17( on earth) and back in heaven(Rev 3:12)--Paul teaches it many times-Coll 1:3, 1Cor 15:24-28, Eph 1:13,17, 2Cor 11:31--Peter as well-1Peter 1:3-- You must teach--God has a God then, which would be nonsensical. Every Israelite knew the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it. No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

No the early church fathers did not understand it the way you think. The Israelites knew 100% that the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7--Fact-God does not have a God. Thus Catholicism mistranslated Proskenaue as worship to Jesus when obesiance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word for one who has a God in the Messiahs case. It translates to bow and kiss the feet. 5 different meanings from Greek to english-1) worship to God-2) obesiance to a king-3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. There are many errors in Catholicism translating carried over to most translations.

You said wrong, but then did not show early church fathers that state otherwise.

New Catholic encyclopedia, 1967, Vol XIV, Page 299--- The formulation, one God in three persons was not established, certainly not assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith,prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective----( of God as a trinity)

God did not change from the single being Abrahamic God, Catholicism changed him at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. All serving that non existent God( who is really satan posing to get worship) are being mislead into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.

That has to do with the exact formulation of the Trinity. I already quoted the earliest church fathers that all said Jesus is God, and they say it plainly. Jesus our God. Do you have a church father that says Jesus is not God?

I have read the bible many times, not once did they say Jesus our God. The opposite is truth-Jesus teaches he has a God=his Father, just like us-John 20:17( on earth) and back in heaven(Rev 3:12)--Paul teaches it many times-Coll 1:3, 1Cor 15:24-28, Eph 1:13,17, 2Cor 11:31--Peter as well-1Peter 1:3-- You must teach--God has a God then, which would be nonsensical. Every Israelite knew the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7

You did not answer my question, which was can you post an early church father that believed Jesus was not God? When you try to find it, you will see the answer is no, because they all believed he was God.

As far as the bible goes, I made a long post showing many verses. Here are some.

2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

To the son he says O God.

[kjw47]

[Replying to tam in post #660]

Most of this post doesn't require a response, so I will respond to those things i think should be responded to.

But how does that change the fact that what matters is what Christ says?

It doesn't, but the disciples will understand what Christ said more than anyone claiming they know Christ in 2022.

I do not know why you cannot see that He can be before all things (other than His Father). Why could He not?

Because, time and space are physical attributes of the world that would need to be created, for physical attributes are created. If Jesus is before all created things, then he is before time, and thus is eternal.

Thomas was not calling Christ... the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH).

That is how the early church fathers understood it. No one disagrees with it until Arius at around 300ad. Ebionites disagreed with it, I am sure, even though we have no record of that exactly, but we know they rejected even the resurrection of Jesus.

No the early church fathers did not understand it the way you think. The Israelites knew 100% that the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7--Fact-God does not have a God. Thus Catholicism mistranslated Proskenaue as worship to Jesus when obesiance to Gods appointed king is the correct usage of that Greek word for one who has a God in the Messiahs case. It translates to bow and kiss the feet. 5 different meanings from Greek to english-1) worship to God-2) obesiance to a king-3) honor to a judge, plus 2 others. There are many errors in Catholicism translating carried over to most translations.

You said wrong, but then did not show early church fathers that state otherwise.

New Catholic encyclopedia, 1967, Vol XIV, Page 299--- The formulation, one God in three persons was not established, certainly not assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith,prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective----( of God as a trinity)

God did not change from the single being Abrahamic God, Catholicism changed him at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce. All serving that non existent God( who is really satan posing to get worship) are being mislead into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.

That has to do with the exact formulation of the Trinity. I already quoted the earliest church fathers that all said Jesus is God, and they say it plainly. Jesus our God. Do you have a church father that says Jesus is not God?

I have read the bible many times, not once did they say Jesus our God. The opposite is truth-Jesus teaches he has a God=his Father, just like us-John 20:17( on earth) and back in heaven(Rev 3:12)--Paul teaches it many times-Coll 1:3, 1Cor 15:24-28, Eph 1:13,17, 2Cor 11:31--Peter as well-1Peter 1:3-- You must teach--God has a God then, which would be nonsensical. Every Israelite knew the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7

You did not answer my question, which was can you post an early church father that believed Jesus was not God? When you try to find it, you will see the answer is no, because they all believed he was God.

As far as the bible goes, I made a long post showing many verses. Here are some.

2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

To the son he says O God.

You are displaying Catholicism translating. They put many errors in to try to say Jesus is God, but for every error there are 20 things that show the opposite, Only Catholicism NT translating remained when the protestants translated, carrying all errors over into them. They contradict Jesus to the core. The best scenario for all who truly wish to be a follower of Jesus is to carefully study all his teachings. Like here is a super important one EVERY true follower already knows by heart---Matt 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his (YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)
One must ask themself--How many days of my life has my heart instructed my mind to seek YHWH(Jehovah's) righteousness first????