marketandchurch wrote:
This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:
Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?
You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.
And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.
Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:
- Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.
If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.
I do not believe God is calling the whole world now, If you are not called you cannot come.
One of the problems we have had is that we have thought that God intended all along to save all who would ever be saved during this age! That is not the case at all. Acts 15:16 attests to this as do other scriptures. "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: (Why, why, why?) THAT THE RESIDUE (the rest, the remainder) OF MEN (of mankind) MIGHT SEEK AFTER THE LORD, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called . . ." IN THE NEXT AGE AND "IN THE AGES TO COME!" "He that raised us up together, and MADE us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Why?) That in the ages to come HE MIGHT SHOW (show it to whom except to those who are yet to bend the knee and bow the heart?) THE EXCEEDING KINDNESS OF HIS GRACE IN HIS KINDNESS TOWARD US THROUGH JESUS CHRIST" --Ephesians 2:6,7. "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting" --Eph.2:8 CLNT (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Again you say, "Isn't it possible that in all the verses you cite, that God is saying He offers salvation to all men? For example, if I was in a prison camp and a certain man was scheduled for execution, I could give (in my heart) and offer (physically) my life for his. I could offer to him my very life, but he MIGHT refuse. (This actually happened to Richard Wurmbrand) John 3:17 says, ". . . that the world through Him MIGHT be saved," not will be saved."
1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(order) Gk Strongs NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)
One of the problems we have had is that we have thought that God intended all along to save all who would ever be saved during this age! That is not the case at all. Acts 15:16 attests to this as do other scriptures. "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: (Why, why, why?) THAT THE RESIDUE (the rest, the remainder) OF MEN (of mankind) MIGHT SEEK AFTER THE LORD, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called . . ." IN THE NEXT AGE AND "IN THE AGES TO COME!" "He that raised us up together, and MADE us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Why?) That in the ages to come HE MIGHT SHOW (show it to whom except to those who are yet to bend the knee and bow the heart?) THE EXCEEDING KINDNESS OF HIS GRACE IN HIS KINDNESS TOWARD US THROUGH JESUS CHRIST" --Ephesians 2:6,7. "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting" --Eph.2:8 CLNT (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Again you say, "Isn't it possible that in all the verses you cite, that God is saying He offers salvation to all men? For example, if I was in a prison camp and a certain man was scheduled for execution, I could give (in my heart) and offer (physically) my life for his. I could offer to him my very life, but he MIGHT refuse. (This actually happened to Richard Wurmbrand) John 3:17 says, ". . . that the world through Him MIGHT be saved," not will be saved."
(George Hawtin)
No, but I don't imagine he'd enjoy the last few seconds or minutes of his life. Christian or not, most folks seem to want to hold on to life.
