The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[JehovahsWitness]

* please clarify if you believe Satan is not completely destroyed in the lake of fire, ie that he is thrown into the lake but survives.

I've never even heard of that theory. Who holds it, ...?

Those that do not believe the lake of fire represents complete destruction ie being rendered nonexistent.

.... ... and why?

I dont know.

It seems evident That if DEATH (which is a condition and not an individual) is also thrown into "the lake of fire"it cannot represent a place where one continues to exist but is rather it is figurative of complete destruction. You will have to ask those that hold to the view that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire but somehow continues to exist after the experience, of someone that holds that view.

Well, it pictures the devil relegated to -- sent to dwell eternally in -- the eternal fire, which is figurative.

JW




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[Checkpoint]

[Replying to tam in post #909]

The problem (or at least one problem) with the idea that thousand years is right now, is that the Adversary is not currently sealed and locked in the Abyss, which he is supposed to be before the start of the thousand years:

Yes, I know it looks that way. It did to me too, for some 15 years.

All is not always what it seems; sometimes we need the awareness and the courage to change our mind about our own understanding and interpretation of specific things.

Time has run out tonight, but I will begin to discuss this aspect tomorrow, in a post to you.

The Lord bless and keep you, Tammy.

[PinSeeker]

Three times the bible mentions this period of 1000 years, what rationale has been presented to conclude it is figurative. What is it figurative of?

The fullness of God's time. It has been explained many times that the number 1000 is a number used in Scripture in numerous places, Old and New Testament alike, to denote completeness. The numbers 3, 7, and 12 are used in that manner, too. And to be more specific, it's the complete time that it God has appointed to bring all He has intended to bring into Israel, as we read from Paul in Romans 11. The fullness of the Gentiles will be brought in, and then the partial hardening of Israel will be removed, and in these two successive ways, all of Israel will be saved. And this is continuing right now. Where God is in that process -- how close to the end of it -- we don't know, but only that it is occurring according to His plan and purpose. We only know that God has been building His Kingdom and will continue until it is complete, and nothing will thwart it in any way. The millennium of Revelation 20 is figurative in the same sense as, among others:

• Psalm 50, where we read that "the cattle on a thousand hills" are the Lord's -- which surely does not mean that the cattle on every other hill (because there are much more than literally a thousand hills on earth with cattle on them) are someone else's. That line itself is nestled in the midst of "every beast" and "all that moves" is His. The context does not change. Revelation 20 should be understood in the same way.

• Psalm 90, which Peter quotes that to the Lord, a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years. This is right after Moses -- Psalm 90 is a prayer of Moses -- has said that "from everlasting to everlasting you are God." The point is that, with regard to God's promises, what seems like it's happening very slowly to us happens very quickly from God's perspective, and it refers to all of time, not literally one day or 1,000 years.

EVENTS LINKED WITH THE MILLENIUM

- The restriction (but not the destruction) and subbsequent releasing of Satan.
- two different resurrections
- The ruling of Jesus with a number of co-rulers for this same period

Even if the 1000 year period is figurative, unless we are going include the promise to rule in heaven, the resurrection of the dead, Satan the Devil and indeed Jesus himself, do not exist but are simply figurative of something else, we still have to place the events in a timeline your version of which allows no place for.

REVELATION 20:4, 5

And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead+ did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Oh, but it does "allow" for it. In order:

• The first resurrection is happening now. The first resurrection is not physical, but spiritual. As Paul says in Ephesians 2:
  
  • "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved -- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."
  Being saved, coming to Christ... THIS is the first resurrection. The second resurrection IS physical, and it happens at the end of the millennium, when Jesus returns.

• Jesus is ruling from heaven right now. Jesus and Jesus only is "seated at the right hand" of the Father. The concept of our "co-rule" is often misunderstood. As Isaiah says:
  
  • "(f)or to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder... Of the increase of His government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over His kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore."
  In some ways, we do in fact share in the anointing that Jesus enjoys as the Christ, but none of us do and none of us ever will share in Christ’s kingly office. Rather, we all -- all, not a select few; the 144,000 of Revelation 7 is not literal, either, not merely 144,000 people but an innumerable multitude [1000 times 12, the number of the tribes of Israel, so the complete Israel] -- reign with Jesus over creation. And the spirits of the saints who have gone before us -- physically died -- are with Him now. And in light of what the first resurrection is (explained immediately above), spiritually speaking, we are, too... we are seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

• When we read in Revelation 20 that "(t)hey came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years," it should be understood that this is happening over the thousand-year period (which again is figurative and not literally one thousand years). It is a misunderstanding of the text that only after all people are physically resurrected (the second resurrection) do they any of them reign with Christ. Again, over the course of the millennium -- the Church Age, which is from Pentecost to Jesus's return -- people are experiencing spiritual resurrection in this life and subsequently reigning with Christ, both in this life and after physical death.

Grace and peace to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

• The first resurrection is happening now. The first resurrection is not physical, but spiritual.

Yes I agree with that.

So....

Is Satan in the abysses now too?
If so, in what sense and in what sense will he be "released"?


JW

[PinSeeker]

It seems evident That if DEATH (which is a condition and not an individual) is also thrown into "the lake of fire"it cannot represent a place where one continues to exist but is rather it is figurative of complete destruction.

Well, death is surely a state of being. The first death is physical/temporal, and the second is spiritual/eternal. I agree on "complete destruction," but the concept of what exactly that is is what is debatable. It can be understood in two very different ways of course, but as it is put forth in the Bible by God, only one is correct. "Complete destruction" is also a state of being... existing in complete and utter spiritual ruin, with no possibility of being redeemed. It's very spiritual and eternal.

You will have to ask those that hold to the view that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire but somehow continues to exist after the experience, of someone that holds that view.

Well, it pictures the devil relegated to -- sent to dwell eternally in -- the eternal fire, which is figurative.

Yes, only some understand it correctly. This does not mean anyone is somehow "smarter" than anyone else. But as Jesus says in Matthew 25:46, they "go away into eternal punishment" -- the devil and his angels first, and then all those on Jesus's "left," those who are not members of God's Elect. They go away, they depart. They do not vanish into thin air, they do not cease to exist. There is bounteous Scriptural support for the former, and absolutely no Scriptural support for the latter. God does not and will not annihilate anything that He created good, as He did all of creation -- and surely not what He created in His image, as He did all of mankind -- in Genesis 1.

Grace and peace to all.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #910]

Checkpoint wrote:

...the 1000 years is figurative, just as most of Revelation is.

Even if the 1000 year period is figurative, unless we are going include the promise to rule in heaven, the resurrection of the dead, Satan the Devil and indeed Jesus himself, do not exist but are simply figurative of something else, we still have to place the events in a timeline your version of which allows no place for.

Figurative means "not literal". It does not mean things or events described "do not exist".

1,000 is 10 x10 x 10, which represents completeness of testimony.

The 1000 years is thus a complete time period of testimony.

Testimony to the kingdom of God, to the day of salvation, to God's command to all to repent. The testimony of Jesus.

[PinSeeker]

• The first resurrection is happening now. The first resurrection is not physical, but spiritual.

Yes I agree with that.

So....

Is Satan in the abysses now too?
If so, in what sense and in what sense will he be "released"?


JW

Satan is "bound" in the sense that he is no longer able -- since the incarnation of Jesus and the opening of the Gospel to Gentiles -- to deceive the nations. He will be able to again, but only for a short time, which will occur after all Elect Gentiles have been brought in to God's Israel and the partial hardening of Israel (placed upon Elect ethnic Jews) removed... It is in this sense he will be "released."

[PinSeeker]

Figurative means "not literal". It does not mean things or events described "do not exist".

1,000 is 10 x10 x 10, which represents completeness of testimony.

The 1000 years is thus a complete time period of testimony.

Testimony to the kingdom of God, to the day of salvation, to God's command to all to repent. The testimony of Jesus.

Very, very, very well said.

The only thing I would add is -- You knew I was going to add SOMETHING, right? -- because of the repetition, it denotes complete completeness, if that makes sense. Like all of Jesus's "Truly, truly (verily, verily) I tell you" statements. The repetition is very intentional on the part of the Holy Spirit there, and all through Scripture.

As an aside, see what I did with the word 'very' in my first sentence above? You know, repeated it three times over? See what I did there?

Grace and peace to all.

[JehovahsWitness]

Satan is "bound" in the sense that he is no longer able -- since the incarnation of Jesus and the opening of the Gospel to Gentiles -- to deceive the nations.

Really?

2 CORINTHIANS 4:4
If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination* of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God,+ might not shine through.

JOHN 14:30 - NKJV

I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me..

EPHESIANS 2:1, 2

God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you at one time walked according to the system of things* of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SATAN THE DEVIL , , THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

[PinSeeker]

Satan is "bound" in the sense that he is no longer able -- since the incarnation of Jesus and the opening of the Gospel to Gentiles -- to deceive the nations.

Really?

Yes, really.

Revelation 20:3 says specifically, verse 3 relates that he is bound from deceiving the nations during the millennium. Satan is now not able to keep the nations of earth -- not individuals -- blinded from seeing who God is, and what His gospel means for them. As a result of Christ’s finished work in dying on the cross, in rising from the dead, in ascending to the Father, and in being crowned on the throne of glory, Satan lost his power to deceive the untold millions of pagans -- nations, not individuals -- whom he formerly kept blinded to God’s saving truth.

None of the passages you pointed out (2 Corinthians 4, Ephesians 2, have anything to do with Satan's ability or inability to deceive the nations, but rather individuals who walk according to this world -- these are the sons of disobedience -- rather than walking by the Holy Spirit, which only Christians, whom God has made alive -- thank you for pointing that out -- are able to do, because they are no longer dead in their sin. After the Lord’s crucifixion and resurrection, and immediately before His ascension back to the Father, He commissioned the church to “go … and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (28:19). They would be able to do this because of Christ’s victory over Satan, who had long blinded the nations, for Jesus said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me’ (v. 18). Satan’s illegitimate power over the nations has been wrested from him, and placed into the hands of the legitimate Lord and Savior of the world. Now the Christian church can do its work; it can engage in successful mission all over the world, bringing the good news of freedom from captivity to those who had long been in chains because of sin and unbelief. Colossians 2:14–15 makes it clear what happened to the powers of evil through Christ’s ministry, especially what He accomplished on the cross: “[He] cancel[ed] the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.” This indicates that wicked powers were defeated in principle at the cross of Christ. When Jesus purged all of our sins on Calvary, Satan lost his authority to keep nations of people back from God. He was bound by what Jesus did.

In other words... ... Satan is bound, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed. Premillennialists and some postmillennialists associate this event with the advent of an extraordinary future era of peace and prosperity, contrasting with the present. But again, the binding of Satan has already taken place through Christ’s death and resurrection (John 12:31; Colossians 2:15; Revelation 12:9; Matthew 12:29). The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive. This is his binding. This restriction on Satan’s power is closely associated with the present temporary demise of the symbolic Beast of Revelation 17:8. The deceiving of the nations takes place largely through the activity of the Beast (Revelation 13:14; 16:14; 19:20). As the Beast can suffer repeated defeats (Revelation 17:8, 10), so Satan can suffer repeated defeats in his power over the nations. The loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:7-10 represents his final attempt, leading to his final defeat.

Grace and peace to you.