Paradise on Earth

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 108 times
Been thanked: 52 times

Paradise on Earth

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

Online
Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 509
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1861

Post by Revelations won »

Dear the question,

I am quoting your new response:

Post #1858
Post by theQuestion » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:09 pm

I said:
It appears that you believe that Adam and Eve should not have partaken of the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" and remained in the garden forever with Satan.
Remember that God did not cast satan out of the beautiful garden of Eden. So according to the record Satan remains freely in the garden today.

Your response was:
The Garden was destroyed in the Flood- at the very latest.

My reply:

This appears to be a private interpretation from you. I do not think you can show a scripture that would verify the Garden was destroyed in the Flood.

You still have not answered my above question.

I asked:
Why did God create all the rest of the world and declare the it was ALL VERY GOOD?

Your response:
Because it WAS, and would be for the expansion of mankind.

My reply:

Thank you for this great answer! (Because it WAS, and would be for the expansion of mankind.) Obviously the garden was not intended to support the billions of mankind. So accordingly God's plan was clearly to place all the rest of Adam's posterity outside of the Garden in the first place.

My next question was:

Why did God cast Lucifer and all those who followed him out of heaven and sent them here to this earth?

Your response was:
"Lucifer" was the King of Babylon. Satan and demons chose treason, as Adam & Eve. He has ALLOWED it for all; and you should know WHY!

My response:

Can you give me the date and location where you allege that Lucifer was crowned "King of Babylon?

Please tell me who crowned Lucifer "King of Babylon?

Where did Satan and demons chose treason?

You claim: Satan and demons chose treason, as Adam and Eve.

Are you trying to say that Adam is Satan??? Or that Eve is a demon? Please explain in detail.

Next asked:
Why did God allow Satan to come into the garden of eden in the first place?
A test of Loyalty.

My response:

Your answer, (A test of Loyalty),is very foreign to my understanding to say the least. When we examine the record, we observe that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for rebellion as one with a clear knowledge of God's plan. Now you are trying to tell me that God allowed Satan to come into the Garden as a "test of his loyalty"? Can you show me a scripture that so makes this statement?


I next asked:
So do you know that mortality is a great and terrible mistake?

Your response:

You mean, originally a Bad Choice?

My answer:

I am OK with describing it as a "Bad Choice".

I would appreciate what you mean by a "bad choice".

Kind regards,
RW

heistrue
Student
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:23 pm
Has thanked: 13 times

Re:

Post #1862

Post by heistrue »

Divine Insight wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:39 am If it was a paradise then it wouldn't be the earth we're used to living on.

Surely there won't be pesky mosquitoes in paradise? Disease? Droughts? Freezing cold winters that we need to prepare for to stay warm and store food that we can't grow in freezing weather? Or will there be free supermarkets in heaven? Perhaps fully automated so no one needs to work there as an employee?

No wars? No bullies? No competing for a loving mate? No competing for a job? No competing for an education?

I'm all for living in paradise. Let's me know when it's available and I'll move right in. :D

I'm assuming there's no property taxes or rent either?

Will I still be able to order fun stuff from Amazon.com? :D

The first thing I'd like to do in paradise is build a 1932 Ford Pickup Truck from scratch. :D

I can hardly wait.
A parable ? and it says that the " meek " will inherit the earth, not paradise and not anyone else but the meek ? They will inherit the entire earth. Have read the passage at all ? Matt 5: 3 "How blessed are the poor in spirit! for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
4 "How blessed are those who mourn! for they will be comforted.
5 "How blessed are the meek! for they will inherit the Land!
6 "How blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness! for they will be filled.
7 "How blessed are those who show mercy! for they will be shown mercy.

He only came to the lost sheep of the House of Israel... it is true...

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15471
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 171 times
Contact:

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1863

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:58 pm

It appears that you believe that Adam and Eve should not have partaken of the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" and remained in the garden forever with Satan.


Satan was never part of God's original purpose for mankind. Since God's purpose cannot ever be thwarted there is no way Adam and Eve, if faithful, would have had to spend eternity with Satan.

JW





To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , SATAN and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15471
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 171 times
Contact:

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1864

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:51 pm
Your response was:
The Garden was destroyed in the Flood- at the very latest.

My reply:

This appears to be a private interpretation from you. I do not think you can show a scripture that would verify the Garden was destroyed in the Flood.

Jesus told his followers to be readers that use discernment thus those with Gods spirit can understand what is implied even if something isn't expliciry stated. Jehovah testified that the earth was "ruined" by the flood waters (Gen 9:11b). Since the plants trees and flowers that made up the garden were on the earth it too would logically also have been ruined.






JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

ORIGINAL SIN , THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD and ... THE FLOOD OF NOAH'S DAY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15471
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 171 times
Contact:

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1865

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:51 pm Obviously the garden was not intended to support the billions of mankind. So accordingly God's plan was clearly to place all the rest of Adam's posterity outside of the Garden in the first place.
No. Expulsion from the garden was clearly a punishment for disobedience. God never purposed for disobedience so there is no reason he would have planned to bar Adam and Eves children from the garden.

Further, humans are community creatures, just as it was not good for Adam to live without human companionship, it would have been cruel and unnecessary to systematically expulse the couples children from the garden when there was plenty of room on the earth for them simply to extend the gardens boundaries to accommodate for their growing extended family.


Our God is reasonable and loving and wise enough to think of such a logical option,


JW




For more details please go to other posts related to...

ORIGINAL SIN , FREE WILL and ... THE EARTHLY PARADISE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 15471
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 171 times
Contact:

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1866

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:51 pm
My next question was:

Why did God cast Lucifer and all those who followed him out of heaven and sent them here to this earth?

If by Lucifer you are referring to Satan the Devil. We believe that he was cast definitely out of Heaven in 1914.

Why? Because God saw fit for this to be the year to cleanse the heavens of his presence



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
theQuestion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:51 am
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1867

Post by theQuestion »

"Remember that God did not cast satan out of the beautiful garden of Eden. So according to the record Satan remains freely in the garden today."- Assumption. No detail specifies, but if you think Jehovah created that beautiful garden for man, expelling them, after their treason, then allowed the one who STARTED it to remian, you've got problems!

"Can you give me the date and location where you allege that Lucifer was crowned "King of Babylon"?
Somewhere in the 6th Century BC, I believe. Jehovah called him such because that is how he VIEWED himself.

Questions like THIS make me question your sincerityu~
"You claim: Satan and demons chose treason, as Adam and Eve.
Are you trying to say that Adam is Satan??? Or that Eve is a demon? Please explain in detail."


"Satan" means "Resistor"- so in a sense, they were HUMAN 'satans'.
"Demons" are angels (messengers of God) that REBELLED as Satan did- in heaven.

"Why did God allow Satan to come into the garden of eden in the first place?
A test of Loyalty.
My response:
Your answer, (A test of Loyalty),is very foreign to my understanding to say the least.


Well, then, consider. You have a teenage boy who wants to drive and have his own car. Would you just buy him one amd send him to a driving school to get his liscense, without considering whether or not he would be RESPONSIBLE?

"I would appreciate what you mean by a "bad choice"."
They were given a CHOICE; a SIMPLE one; stick by the one rule and LIVE, break it and DIE.

I won't answer if you post so many at one time again, my friend!
You MUST worship with spirit & TRUTH!- Jesus

Online
Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 509
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1868

Post by Revelations won »

Dear the question,

You posted:
“Post #1866
Unread post
by JehovahsWitness » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:57 am

Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:51 pm

My next question was:

Why did God cast Lucifer and all those who followed him out of heaven and sent them here to this earth?

Your response:

If by Lucifer you are referring to Satan the Devil. We believe that he was cast definitely out of Heaven in 1914.

Why? Because God saw fit for this to be the year to cleanse the heavens of his presence

I am trying to wrap my mind around your doctrine here.

Let us examine the sequence here.

1. There was war in heaven against the arch enemy of all righteousness and Lucifer and all his fallen angels were cast out of Heaven down unto the earth.

2. Satan then came into the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve.

3. The God you worship did not have the power to keep him out of heaven, so Satan then returned to heaven and was able to remain there for about 6000 more years. So you are saying that the God you worship did not have the power to keep him out of heaven and Satan was able to maintain his evil influence in the presence of God in heaven for all that time and then after nearly 6000 years God was then again able to cleanse heaven and cast Satan out of heaven once again in 1914.

How long will he be able to keep him out of heaven this time?

I am not able to swallow your JW doctrine on this issue. I do not believe you can produce scriptural evidence to support your doctrine. If so let’s hear it.

Kind regards,
RW

User avatar
theQuestion
Banned
Banned
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:51 am
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1869

Post by theQuestion »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:56 pm Dear the question,
My next question was:
Why did God cast Lucifer and all those who followed him out of heaven and sent them here to this earth?
Your response:
If by Lucifer you are referring to Satan the Devil. We believe that he was cast definitely out of Heaven in 1914.
Why? Because God saw fit for this to be the year to cleanse the heavens of his presence
I am trying to wrap my mind around your doctrine here.
Let us examine the sequence here.

1. There was war in heaven against the arch enemy of all righteousness and Lucifer and all his fallen angels were cast out of Heaven down unto the earth.
2. Satan then came into the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve.

The War happened (or WILL happen if our guess @1914 is wrong) MUCH later than Eden; Revelation is a symbolic PROPHECY.

3. The God you worship did not have the power to keep him out of heaven, so....
He had the power to execute Adam, Eve, and Satan- but didn't. We can only guess the reason based on knowing Him.

I am not able to swallow your JW doctrine on this issue. I do not believe you can produce scriptural evidence to support your doctrine. If so let’s hear it.

We can't give "scriptural evidence" on things not explained in scripture: go to Church if you want THAT...

Kind regards,
RW
You MUST worship with spirit & TRUTH!- Jesus

User avatar
tam
Prodigy
Posts: 4566
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: Paradise on Earth

Post #1870

Post by tam »

Peace to you RW,
Revelations won wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:58 pm Dear Onewithhim and Tammy,

Thank you for your responses. Please correct me if my understanding of your responses are not correct.
Of course (or at least I will try!)
It appears that you believe that Adam and Eve should not have partaken of the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" and remained in the garden forever with Satan.
You've connected two things here that are not connected. So lets start with the first:
It appears that you believe that Adam and Eve should not have partaken of the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"
Correct.

God said not to eat of it; they should not have eaten of it. That's pretty straight-forward.

(That does not mean that God would never have permitted them to eat from that tree, perhaps at some point when they were ready.)

**

Then the second:
and remained in the garden forever with Satan.
The Adversary (Satan) is not currently in the Garden of Eden. The Garden is in the spiritual realm, and the Adversary has been cast out of the heavens, no longer able to roam back and forth as he once could.

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.” 13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. Rev 12:12


**

As for the Garden being in the spiritual realm, there are a couple items in the story that indicate this to us. God was there (Genesis 3:8–10), the Adversary was there (he is the serpent), and the Tree of Life (Christ) was there.

See the following link re: the Tree of Life. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37881

So both Christ - as the Tree of Life - and His Father (who walked around in the Garden) are present there in the Garden of Eden. Christ and His Father are spirit beings. The Adversary (the one called Satan) is also present, and he is also a spirit being. He is the angel/seraph/spirit being known also as the dragon or ancient serpent.

From Revelation 20:2,

“He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.”

Somewhere along the way, some of the scribes and teachers misunderstood serpent to be a mere snake, rather than serpent/ “dragon”/ seraph/ angel. But this was not a literal snake talking in the garden; this was an angel/seraph, the one called Satan.

** Just a side note: Neither the Garden nor the Tree of Life were destroyed in the flood. Because the Tree of Life is Christ - the ONLY source from whom we may eat and live forever. I am sure you would agree that He was not destroyed in the flood. For anyone who has been taught that the Tree of Life is not Christ, and is instead some literal tree: why would God have bothered to guard the way back to the Tree and to the Garden if He was just going to destroy them both a short time later in the flood?

Why did God create all the rest of the world and declare the it was ALL VERY GOOD?
Because it was good.
Why did God cast Lucifer and all those who followed him out of heaven and sent them here to this earth?

Satan (not "Lucifer"), the accuser, was defeated and therefore cast out of heaven.
Why did God allow Satan to come into the garden of eden in the first place?
Because the Adversary is a spirit being; he was in the spiritual realm, and appointed as a guardian cherub (See Ezekiel 28: 12-19). Incidentally, Ezekiel also gives us a good idea about the location of Eden,

"You were in Eden..."

and then...

"Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth;"

He was supposed to keep his eyes toward the SON (as Michael the arkangel does, as we are also supposed to do), but the Adversary took his eyes off the Son and placed his eyes upon himself instead, becoming proud, arrogant, and corrupting himself.

You should remember that God did not cast satan out of the beautiful garden of Eden. So according to the record Satan remains freely in the garden today.
See above.
So do you know that mortality is a great and terrible mistake?
I am not sure what you mean. And whose mistake?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Post Reply