Paradise on Earth

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Paradise on Earth

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

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Post #381

Post by William »

[Replying to post 373 by onewithhim]
I don't agree that the sun and the earth and the universe are going to end. I am of the opinion that if God created these things, He can surely make them last forever.
If it were the case then you might as well say that GOD can put you in another universe which might appear to be this one, but is not.
It isn't obvious that we would look for ways to move off the earth if, as you say, the universe is going to end anyway.
Well I accept that this will be the case, according to most scientific data to date. An alternate universe.
Why does death seem to you to be a "door" to other possibilities, if this universe will end someday? Why not set "death" aside and accept that life is the better situation?


Surely how I worded this could leave no doubt that I think the possibility of there being something else (alternate universes) to experience is not saying anything other than 'death' means the end of experiencing this particular universe.

Obviously if - upon the death of the body, I find myself still experiencing something, then I would be alive, yes? It may even be that I have the option of still having some connection with this universe (perhaps in an observatory role) but the point of my statement;

"Death may indeed be the doorway to those other options, and to prolong life in this universe to the point where death is no longer any option, closes that door. All we are left with then, is this universe and we may be denying ourselves far better options, in doing that."

...was obvious and why you chose to skip over that, is peculiar.
I see what you're saying, but I don't agree that after awhile it will just be the same old same old. I think that we will continue to learn and be amazed forever.
One would have to be continuously entertained for that to even be an option. Are you going to have a brain which is able to store all knowledge about everything? Not likely, so that data will have to be stored somewhere and accessible to you.
But what I am saying is that science is heading in this direction and it is inevitable. As is the case, what need there be for 'promises of GOD' to make it happen in a more supernatural manner, that most Christian beliefs incorporate?
Present systems of disparity will make such a thing available only to those who can afford it, rather than to those who have been 'good'.
Why would God let His creations cease to exist?


Why not? Do not 'the heavens and the earth' eventually 'pass away'?

What is so special about this particular universe, that it needs to last forever?
How do you know that there are merely a limited amount of things we can do with material things?
Physics show as much. The limit is in the elements and what can be physically done with them.
I am not suggesting that many marvelous things cannot still be created by humans (or any self aware intelligent species throughout the universe). I am saying that there is a limit to what can be done. The most all self aware species throughout the universe with the capable forms can do is create mind-blowingly huge machines out of the materials available and that aspects of the machinery will be reserved for consciousness to have fantastical experiences as simulations which the universe cannot provide naturally. This will have to be the case in order for consciousness to remain interested in existing.
Have you grasped the facts about everything on the earth? (Or does science learn new things every day?) Are you certain that discoveries will end?
What is there to discover? Rock and gas and all the other elements? New earths? New ways in which to mix the elements?

There is a limit, and granted that the limit is going to take a great while to reach, there is still a limit.

Living forever, is in itself not a limit. But living forever in a finite universe is the limit.

Why, we could even discover newly forming planets with critters on them that understand enough that we could be GODs over them. Maybe that would alleviate some boredom for some time.

But no...I think that there may well be better options to discover and explore in relation to departing this mortal finite realm which might be far more purposeful and perhaps even more conducive to consciousness than this particular universe.

I am not sold on the idea of living forever in this universe, on the one planet...indeed there has been little said about what believers think the benefits might be...apart from vague romantic inferences to the 'wow' factor, which - as I have pointed out, is something not very well thought out to begin with.

it is just a hope in a promise which effectively confines the soul in one universe forever, when there might well be innumerable universe in which to experience.

Like a genie in a bottle. Sure the bottle is understatedly huge, but it is still effectively a prison.

Effectively what you would have is uncountable individual minds all linked together throughout the universe, all having turned the material of the universe - each galaxy - transformed into useful machines, and somehow connected together to create one awesome machine connecting all minds as One Mind which would be GOD.

GOD within a machine.

That is what you are really saying when you express having forever to know all there is to know, in this finite universe.

{Indeed, it might even be that we have already done this and we are simply experiencing a simulation of an ancient past we believe is the present we are experiencing as 'real'.}

So you do not understand the eternal loop and inherent problem of this as an outcome?

And yet, your vision is only focused upon being alive forever on this one wee speck dust of a planet FOREVER, not even contemplating the possibility of moving out into the Galaxy!

I personally don't see this offer of a promise as very enticing when I think more deeply about it, regardless of the promise coming from some GOD or from science.

Either way, it is inevitable that what will happen is that a GOD will be created which knows all there is to know about everything in the universe, has made something more useful out of the stuff of the universe, and is effectively trapped within the universe and only has the one universe in which to experience.

And that can all happen within a tiny portion of time compared to eternity.

Forever is a long time to be inside time and space.

I think there may well be better options and think it wise to reserve choosing until I am far better informed as to those options.

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Post #382

Post by onewithhim »

I stand by what I posted.


:yes: :facepalm:

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Post #383

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: [Replying to post 373 by onewithhim]
I don't agree that the sun and the earth and the universe are going to end. I am of the opinion that if God created these things, He can surely make them last forever.
If it were the case then you might as well say that GOD can put you in another universe which might appear to be this one, but is not.
It isn't obvious that we would look for ways to move off the earth if, as you say, the universe is going to end anyway.
Well I accept that this will be the case, according to most scientific data to date. An alternate universe.
Why does death seem to you to be a "door" to other possibilities, if this universe will end someday? Why not set "death" aside and accept that life is the better situation?


Surely how I worded this could leave no doubt that I think the possibility of there being something else (alternate universes) to experience is not saying anything other than 'death' means the end of experiencing this particular universe.

Obviously if - upon the death of the body, I find myself still experiencing something, then I would be alive, yes? It may even be that I have the option of still having some connection with this universe (perhaps in an observatory role) but the point of my statement;

"Death may indeed be the doorway to those other options, and to prolong life in this universe to the point where death is no longer any option, closes that door. All we are left with then, is this universe and we may be denying ourselves far better options, in doing that."

...was obvious and why you chose to skip over that, is peculiar.
I see what you're saying, but I don't agree that after awhile it will just be the same old same old. I think that we will continue to learn and be amazed forever.
One would have to be continuously entertained for that to even be an option. Are you going to have a brain which is able to store all knowledge about everything? Not likely, so that data will have to be stored somewhere and accessible to you.
But what I am saying is that science is heading in this direction and it is inevitable. As is the case, what need there be for 'promises of GOD' to make it happen in a more supernatural manner, that most Christian beliefs incorporate?
Present systems of disparity will make such a thing available only to those who can afford it, rather than to those who have been 'good'.
Why would God let His creations cease to exist?


Why not? Do not 'the heavens and the earth' eventually 'pass away'?

What is so special about this particular universe, that it needs to last forever?
How do you know that there are merely a limited amount of things we can do with material things?
Physics show as much. The limit is in the elements and what can be physically done with them.
I am not suggesting that many marvelous things cannot still be created by humans (or any self aware intelligent species throughout the universe). I am saying that there is a limit to what can be done. The most all self aware species throughout the universe with the capable forms can do is create mind-blowingly huge machines out of the materials available and that aspects of the machinery will be reserved for consciousness to have fantastical experiences as simulations which the universe cannot provide naturally. This will have to be the case in order for consciousness to remain interested in existing.
Have you grasped the facts about everything on the earth? (Or does science learn new things every day?) Are you certain that discoveries will end?
What is there to discover? Rock and gas and all the other elements? New earths? New ways in which to mix the elements?

There is a limit, and granted that the limit is going to take a great while to reach, there is still a limit.

Living forever, is in itself not a limit. But living forever in a finite universe is the limit.

Why, we could even discover newly forming planets with critters on them that understand enough that we could be GODs over them. Maybe that would alleviate some boredom for some time.

But no...I think that there may well be better options to discover and explore in relation to departing this mortal finite realm which might be far more purposeful and perhaps even more conducive to consciousness than this particular universe.

I am not sold on the idea of living forever in this universe, on the one planet...indeed there has been little said about what believers think the benefits might be...apart from vague romantic inferences to the 'wow' factor, which - as I have pointed out, is something not very well thought out to begin with.

it is just a hope in a promise which effectively confines the soul in one universe forever, when there might well be innumerable universe in which to experience.

Like a genie in a bottle. Sure the bottle is understatedly huge, but it is still effectively a prison.

Effectively what you would have is uncountable individual minds all linked together throughout the universe, all having turned the material of the universe - each galaxy - transformed into useful machines, and somehow connected together to create one awesome machine connecting all minds as One Mind which would be GOD.

GOD within a machine.

That is what you are really saying when you express having forever to know all there is to know, in this finite universe.

{Indeed, it might even be that we have already done this and we are simply experiencing a simulation of an ancient past we believe is the present we are experiencing as 'real'.}

So you do not understand the eternal loop and inherent problem of this as an outcome?

And yet, your vision is only focused upon being alive forever on this one wee speck dust of a planet FOREVER, not even contemplating the possibility of moving out into the Galaxy!

I personally don't see this offer of a promise as very enticing when I think more deeply about it, regardless of the promise coming from some GOD or from science.

Either way, it is inevitable that what will happen is that a GOD will be created which knows all there is to know about everything in the universe, has made something more useful out of the stuff of the universe, and is effectively trapped within the universe and only has the one universe in which to experience.

And that can all happen within a tiny portion of time compared to eternity.

Forever is a long time to be inside time and space.

I think there may well be better options and think it wise to reserve choosing until I am far better informed as to those options.
I didn't choose to skip over anything. I referred to your "doorway" statement in my comment.

You are making a LOT of assumptions! How do you KNOW that our brains could not store endless data?

I don't think you are getting what I am saying at all, though you suggest that you do.

How can you say that I haven't contemplated "moving to another galaxy," when I referred to the possibility of that very thing? I even probably misspelled "Alpha Centaurus." I wonder if you're paying attention. Also, you say the universe is going to end. Then why go to another galaxy at all? You are being inconsistent.

:confused2:

Joe1950

Post #384

Post by Joe1950 »

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 358 by Benoni]
Benoni wrote:
Sorry it sounds like you will never understand. 1 Corinthians 2:

I can't be expected to EVER understand it if nobody can properly explain it to me... can I? I'm also RATHER skeptical that you understand it yourself.

If you can't explain it.. hmm not so great understanding in my book.
Sounds like bluster to me.

I left the church precisely because of that reason.
They had NO answers just a lot of bluster.

Cats are curious.
Curiosity killed this cat's religious aspirations.

____________

Question:


  • I think I was asking you what you meant by "spirit". What on EARTH do you mean by "spiritually discerned"? Do you imagine that explains it?

____________



:)
I would suggest that the idea of "spirit", depending on how it is used, cannot be explained. It is one of those "take it on faith" components of religion. The idea is that it is the "non-physical part" of a person to use some dictionary definition. Of course, the more we learn about the brain and consciousness and how information is processed, the more it seems that the "non-physical" part of a person does not exist. There is no consciousness or "spirit" apart from the human body.

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Post #385

Post by William »

Replying to post 373 by onewithhim

I didn't choose to skip over anything. I referred to your "doorway" statement in my comment.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding;

you said;
Why does death seem to you to be a "door" to other possibilities, if this universe will end someday? Why not set "death" aside and accept that life is the better situation?
I understand that JWs have a particular doctrine in which they think death does not mean there is anything to experience after death.
For more on what I think on that please read this post: Image

In context with the rest of the post you were commenting on, I don't think that this universe is the only option. I don't accept that life in this universe is necessariy the better option or even if it were the only one, (other than actually ceasing to exist) I might prefer ceasing to exist, depending on what the options are in relation to what your beliefs about it might be, and why you think your beliefs are correct.
You are making a LOT of assumptions! How do you KNOW that our brains could not store endless data?
Because they are finite. They are simply not big enough to contain all the information of the universe. Even if they were as big as a planet.
I don't think you are getting what I am saying at all, though you suggest that you do.
No - I don't get what you are saying and say as much. What I get so far is that people who believe this kind of thing haven't thought things through logically and I went to some lengths to explain why I think this is the case. I also mentioned that, when I wrote;

I am not sold on the idea of living forever in this universe, on the one planet...indeed there has been little said about what believers think the benefits might be...apart from vague romantic inferences to the 'wow' factor, which - as I have pointed out, is something not very well thought out to begin with.
How can you say that I haven't contemplated "moving to another galaxy," when I referred to the possibility of that very thing? I even probably misspelled "Alpha Centaurus." I wonder if you're paying attention.
Sorry - I wasn't sure that you had ventured beyond earth in your belief that you will be granted eternal life on the planet earth. But I did include the overall idea of this universe being something which could be utilized by beings who were given the means (or created for themselves the means) to live in it forever, and why this was not that appealing when logically thought through.

Perhaps you would care to answer those observations that I made in regard to that?
Also, you say the universe is going to end. Then why go to another galaxy at all? You are being inconsistent.
Well precisely the notion of living forever in this universe is inconsistent with this universe.

You say GOD has the ability to make it so that it would last forever. You don't say how, but as I mentioned, if that were the case, then effectively it would not BE this universe but some other universe.

But to answer your question, there would really be no need to go to any other galaxy as this one we are within would keep the eternal busy for a few billion years anyway, plus Andromeda is going to merge with our own Galaxy (or perhaps collide) so there is that to consider.

Other eternal beings with similar attributes as humans which live in other galaxies can do the same with theirs as beings in our galaxy will be doing with ours.

Those galaxies which are not merging, are separating from one another so eventually there will be a time when no other galaxies will be detectable from any of the other galaxies.

The only thing eternal beings living within a galaxy can do with that galaxy is transform it into a machine.

This would be happening within all the galaxies and there may be a way in which to harness the galactic energy in order to move the once-galaxy-now-machine/ship toward a 'central point' (which would be somewhere in the vicinity of where the big bang happened assuming it can be done), and eventually bring all those machine/ships together.

Or, it may not be possible...time will tell. If not, then forever there will be these once-were-galaxies which have been transformed into machines, dotted throughout spacetime like individual islands who's inhabitants know that they are one of countless such islands but are essentially all alone in their place in spacetime and so far removed from all others as to make it impossible to travel to those other once-galaxies-now-machines, no matter even if the speed of light was achievable.

So anyway, what is consciousness to do with itself once it reaches this stage? It is separated into uncountable machined/technological islands and contained therein for the rest of forever.

It is in all respects GOD-like in its knowing everything there is to know about the universe, but free to go nowhere in particular.

All it can do is use its vast data of experience to recreate the process which got it to that place, perhaps going over and over it countless times as a simulation. It has, after all, an eternity in which to do this. Perhaps veering off into every conceivable possibility that could have happened but didn't. Just anything really to keep it entertained for all eternity.

That is why I said that we don't even know if this transferring the galaxies into vast ship/machines hasn't already happened an eternity ago already and we are now living within a simulated reality 'just because' there is nothing else we can do with our 'time'.

I am not saying that it is the case, but just that we don't know if it is or is not the case...but the idea is interesting anyway...I think so at least. :)

But my main point is that even quantum physicists have done the math enough to state that their calculations point to there being more than just this universe, so that on its own is enough to make me think not to be hasty in deciding that this one is the best option.

Also, I have had some OOBE experiences and through those have had a wee glimpse at an alternative and what I have seen is that the alternative is far more attractive.
As well as this, just reading what others have to say about their own experiences with the alternatives, make this universe extremely drab and uninteresting in comparison. Even with such things as, you mentioning "learning". One just seems to 'know' already.

Also another thing...it is like this present universe is running at the slowest motion possible, is 'thick' and tedious. I think I would rather spend a trillion years creating all kinds of universes than being involved with working out how to make a ship/machine out of a galaxy in the same amount of time in this universe.

I suppose in one way the attraction to this universe and the Romanticism therein is all about 'better the devil you know' kind of thinking and if you haven't experienced any alternate one, you only have this one to go by. It is called 'attachment'.

This universe is really drab. Sure it has a lot of bright sparkly things which look beautiful at a distance...but it doesn't even feel like home to me, and people who knock on my door and tell me I can live here forever if I believe what they believe, they just don't impress me, for the reasons I have given in these last three posts on the subject.

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Post #386

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Replying to post 373 by onewithhim

I didn't choose to skip over anything. I referred to your "doorway" statement in my comment.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding;

you said;
Why does death seem to you to be a "door" to other possibilities, if this universe will end someday? Why not set "death" aside and accept that life is the better situation?
I understand that JWs have a particular doctrine in which they think death does not mean there is anything to experience after death.
For more on what I think on that please read this post: Image

In context with the rest of the post you were commenting on, I don't think that this universe is the only option. I don't accept that life in this universe is necessariy the better option or even if it were the only one, (other than actually ceasing to exist) I might prefer ceasing to exist, depending on what the options are in relation to what your beliefs about it might be, and why you think your beliefs are correct.
You are making a LOT of assumptions! How do you KNOW that our brains could not store endless data?
Because they are finite. They are simply not big enough to contain all the information of the universe. Even if they were as big as a planet.
I don't think you are getting what I am saying at all, though you suggest that you do.
No - I don't get what you are saying and say as much. What I get so far is that people who believe this kind of thing haven't thought things through logically and I went to some lengths to explain why I think this is the case. I also mentioned that, when I wrote;

I am not sold on the idea of living forever in this universe, on the one planet...indeed there has been little said about what believers think the benefits might be...apart from vague romantic inferences to the 'wow' factor, which - as I have pointed out, is something not very well thought out to begin with.
How can you say that I haven't contemplated "moving to another galaxy," when I referred to the possibility of that very thing? I even probably misspelled "Alpha Centaurus." I wonder if you're paying attention.
Sorry - I wasn't sure that you had ventured beyond earth in your belief that you will be granted eternal life on the planet earth. But I did include the overall idea of this universe being something which could be utilized by beings who were given the means (or created for themselves the means) to live in it forever, and why this was not that appealing when logically thought through.

Perhaps you would care to answer those observations that I made in regard to that?
Also, you say the universe is going to end. Then why go to another galaxy at all? You are being inconsistent.
Well precisely the notion of living forever in this universe is inconsistent with this universe.

You say GOD has the ability to make it so that it would last forever. You don't say how, but as I mentioned, if that were the case, then effectively it would not BE this universe but some other universe.

But to answer your question, there would really be no need to go to any other galaxy as this one we are within would keep the eternal busy for a few billion years anyway, plus Andromeda is going to merge with our own Galaxy (or perhaps collide) so there is that to consider.

Other eternal beings with similar attributes as humans which live in other galaxies can do the same with theirs as beings in our galaxy will be doing with ours.

Those galaxies which are not merging, are separating from one another so eventually there will be a time when no other galaxies will be detectable from any of the other galaxies.

The only thing eternal beings living within a galaxy can do with that galaxy is transform it into a machine.

This would be happening within all the galaxies and there may be a way in which to harness the galactic energy in order to move the once-galaxy-now-machine/ship toward a 'central point' (which would be somewhere in the vicinity of where the big bang happened assuming it can be done), and eventually bring all those machine/ships together.

Or, it may not be possible...time will tell. If not, then forever there will be these once-were-galaxies which have been transformed into machines, dotted throughout spacetime like individual islands who's inhabitants know that they are one of countless such islands but are essentially all alone in their place in spacetime and so far removed from all others as to make it impossible to travel to those other once-galaxies-now-machines, no matter even if the speed of light was achievable.

So anyway, what is consciousness to do with itself once it reaches this stage? It is separated into uncountable machined/technological islands and contained therein for the rest of forever.

It is in all respects GOD-like in its knowing everything there is to know about the universe, but free to go nowhere in particular.

All it can do is use its vast data of experience to recreate the process which got it to that place, perhaps going over and over it countless times as a simulation. It has, after all, an eternity in which to do this. Perhaps veering off into every conceivable possibility that could have happened but didn't. Just anything really to keep it entertained for all eternity.

That is why I said that we don't even know if this transferring the galaxies into vast ship/machines hasn't already happened an eternity ago already and we are now living within a simulated reality 'just because' there is nothing else we can do with our 'time'.

I am not saying that it is the case, but just that we don't know if it is or is not the case...but the idea is interesting anyway...I think so at least. :)

But my main point is that even quantum physicists have done the math enough to state that their calculations point to there being more than just this universe, so that on its own is enough to make me think not to be hasty in deciding that this one is the best option.

Also, I have had some OOBE experiences and through those have had a wee glimpse at an alternative and what I have seen is that the alternative is far more attractive.
As well as this, just reading what others have to say about their own experiences with the alternatives, make this universe extremely drab and uninteresting in comparison. Even with such things as, you mentioning "learning". One just seems to 'know' already.

Also another thing...it is like this present universe is running at the slowest motion possible, is 'thick' and tedious. I think I would rather spend a trillion years creating all kinds of universes than being involved with working out how to make a ship/machine out of a galaxy in the same amount of time in this universe.

I suppose in one way the attraction to this universe and the Romanticism therein is all about 'better the devil you know' kind of thinking and if you haven't experienced any alternate one, you only have this one to go by. It is called 'attachment'.

This universe is really drab. Sure it has a lot of bright sparkly things which look beautiful at a distance...but it doesn't even feel like home to me, and people who knock on my door and tell me I can live here forever if I believe what they believe, they just don't impress me, for the reasons I have given in these last three posts on the subject.
Yes, I read that post and looked at it again just now. You don't understand what JehovahsWitness and I tried to explain about the body and the soul. The body is the physical part of us, dead or alive. The "soul" is everything about us, including our personality and our thoughts. When Jesus said that the body can be killed by anyone, he said that God could destroy BOTH body and soul; the soul is closely associated with our future life prospects, which lie with God (who can destroy the soul by not bringing the person back to life). Man can kill another man's body but not his soul---his complete person---which only God can destroy by not resurrecting him. "Spirit" is involved here only because it is the force of life that keeps a person alive.

Your idea about the brain being "finite" is only your unsubstantiated surmising. You don't KNOW how much information the brain can hold.

I HAD commented about your ideas about the universe and how you think that it is not appealing to think about living forever in it.

What universe are you talking about when you imply that going to another one might be more interesting than staying in this one? When I say "universe," I am talking about everything out there.

You also do not know with absolute certainty that all the galaxies will "merge." Just as you do not know with certainty that our Sun will go out.


.

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Post #387

Post by William »

[Replying to post 386 by onewithhim]
Yes, I read that post and looked at it again just now. You don't understand what JehovahsWitness and I tried to explain about the body and the soul. The body is the physical part of us, dead or alive. The "soul" is everything about us, including our personality and our thoughts.
Well JehovahsWitness can speak for his or her self. As far as I am concerned I did indeed understand what he/she was saying about the soul and gave my answer, so if you care to address that, it would be helpful.

When Jesus said that the body can be killed by anyone, he said that God could destroy BOTH body and soul;
I didn't argue against that. My argument was that the soul is clearly not the person.
the soul is closely associated with our future life prospects, which lie with God (who can destroy the soul by not bringing the person back to life).
The difference is in that I call the person the 'spirit' and you do not. You seem to think of it as some kind of animating force, perhaps like fuel animates a machine? GOD is spirit. The breath of life is spirit. Not fuel to power an otherwise inanimate object.
Man can kill another man's body but not his soul---his complete person---which only God can destroy by not resurrecting him. "Spirit" is involved here only because it is the force of life that keeps a person alive.
From what you are saying here, the spirit keeps the soul alive. I think the only difference is that you believe that the soul is the person and I think the spirit is the person, and gave specific reasons for thinking this to be the case. The soul is like the memory/storage/hard drive of the spirit.

The person is the spirit particle (the breath of GOD part) and retains the soul as its data of experience in its new environment and continues on with its personal experience, and the data of experience is still being added to the soul.

We agree that the soul can be wiped (deleted - the data destroyed) which effectively is the same thing as the person ceasing to exist, but where the difference is, is that the spirit is what gives the ability of the person to be a person (an individual) through the aspect of the soul. If the soul is deleted the data of experience is deleted and the person (spirit) no longer has the data and is effectively empty of that data of experience. The spirit still exists because it is of GOD and cannot cease to exist.

After the data has been examined the spirit particle may be allowed to keep the data (soul) and continue to be that particular individual person, (aka 'be saved') adding to the soul, all further data of experience which makes up that individuals record of existence. Effectively this means that the GOD-particle (spirit/breath of GOD etc) has become an individual personality and retains that individual experience as a spirit for as long as it wants to do so.

While the soul does make up in data what the individual is, it is not the individual, any more than the form is the individual, or the experience is the individual.
The soul could conceivably be stored separate from the spirit as raw data, and would not be considered a 'person' because it is just data - data of experience.

Destroying the data of experience (soul) just means wiping out that data which effectively means that whatever was recorded, never happened, because there in no record of it happening.

The big part of the reason I understand things in this way is because I have experienced OOB and thus understand how the spirit (what I am) can separated from the body and take its data of experience (soul) with it.

I have had some OOBE experiences and through those have had a wee glimpse at an alternative and what I have seen is that the alternative is far more attractive.
As well as this, just reading what others have to say about their own experiences with the alternatives, make this universe extremely drab and uninteresting in comparison. Even with such things as, you mentioning "learning". One just seems to 'know' already.
Your idea about the brain being "finite" is only your unsubstantiated surmising. You don't KNOW how much information the brain can hold.
Just as you are surmising the brain can contain all the information in the whole universe. Perhaps there is some science which can enlighten us as to how much information the brain can hold? Don't forget that you are saying that the brain is going to last forever, so it needs to be able to have an infinite amount of room to store data of experience.

This is indeed another good argument for the soul being that which stores data of experience and the person being the spirit.

If so, then whatever form the spirit is experiencing, the size of the brain wouldn't matter as the spirit is connected directly with GOD (because it is a particle of GOD and GOD is spirit) and thus the soul would act as the medium between spirit and form and house the data of experience, so that the individuals experience is smooth and - in the case of living forever in this universe, linear.
I HAD commented about your ideas about the universe and how you think that it is not appealing to think about living forever in it.
Yes but you hadn't addressed my reasons for that being the case, or given any argument to counter my reasons.
What universe are you talking about when you imply that going to another one might be more interesting than staying in this one? When I say "universe," I am talking about everything out there.
I addressed this. Quantum physicists have done the math enough to state that their calculations point to there being more than just this universe, so that on its own is enough to make me think not to be hasty in deciding that this one is the best option. Alternate realities. What quantum mathematics refer to as the theory of multi-universes.
Or, if you prefer, 'where GOD resides' which, is not just in this universe. 'Everything out there' as you say, is what I think of as just this particular universe.

You also do not know with absolute certainty that all the galaxies will "merge."
I never said that all galaxies would merge. Some do without overt chaos, some collide, which is a chaotic form of merging.Image

The Milky Way and Andromeda are on course to merge eventually.Image

Just as you do not know with certainty that our Sun will go out.
Yes it will. We know this because we can observe it happening to other suns in the universe. It still has enough hydrogen to last about another 5 billion years.Image That is plenty of time to find ways in which to escape into the greater galaxy. In terms of eternity - living for eternity, it isn't even a noticeable fraction of time.

Precisely why I fond the notion of existing forever in this universe to being problematic, and something I wouldn't personally wish for.

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Post #388

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote:
Precisely why I fond the notion of existing forever in this universe to being problematic, and something I wouldn't personally wish for.

Well I believe that God will respect the wishes of those that do not want to live forever, but everlasting life on this earth rendered a paradise is something I long for and I feel confident I am not alone.

[youtube][/youtube]
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #389

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 388 by JehovahsWitness]


[center]
The feeling of not being alone.. therefore god.[/center]

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Well I believe that God will respect the wishes of those that do not want to live forever, but everlasting life on this earth rendered a paradise is something I long for and I feel confident I am not alone.
May your deepest wishes come true.
Good night and drive safe everybody !

Merry Xmas.


:)

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Post #390

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
William wrote:
Precisely why I find the notion of existing forever in this universe to being problematic, and something I wouldn't personally wish for.

Well I believe that God will respect the wishes of those that do not want to live forever,


You seem to have a habit of misrepresenting what another has said.

Quantum physicists have done the math enough to state that their calculations point to there being more than just this universe, so that on its own is enough to make me think not to be hasty in deciding that this one is the best option. Alternate realities. What quantum mathematics refer to as the theory of multi-universes.
Or, if you prefer, 'where GOD resides' which, is not just in this universe.


and:

I don't think that this universe is the only option. I don't accept that life in this universe is necessarily the better option or even if it were the only one,

and:

Also, I have had some OOBE experiences and through those have had a wee glimpse at an alternative and what I have seen is that the alternative is far more attractive.
As well as this, just reading what others have to say about their own experiences with the alternatives, make this universe extremely drab and uninteresting in comparison. Even with such things as, you mentioning "learning". One just seems to 'know' already.


and:

I think I would rather spend a trillion years creating all kinds of universes...

and:

"Death may indeed be the doorway to those other options, and to prolong life in this universe to the point where death is no longer any option, closes that door. All we are left with then, is this universe and we may be denying ourselves far better options, in doing that."

and:

Living forever, is in itself not a limit. But living forever in a finite universe is the limit.

So, what about any of the above show an individual who "does not want to live forever" that you would imply that if I don't want to believe what you believe that GOD will therefore delete me?

That is really stuffed up.

Sure I understand there are certain personalities who are besotted with the notion of living forever in this universe, and if that is what they want and if that is what they get, then kudos on them getting their wish granted...but I don't tolerate being told that if I don't wish for what they wish for then I am going to be deleted by GOD - as being something that they need or otherwise are required to express. That steps over the line and is cultish.
but everlasting life on this earth rendered a paradise is something I long for and I feel confident I am not alone.
Oh, you certainly are not alone. A large percentage of women make up the membership of this organised belief system. That explains the romanticism I mentioned;

Jehovah's Witnesses - Women make up 65% Men make up 35% Image

The statistic re Jehovah's Witnesses does not surprise me. They knock on my door quite often and are usually females. I think that the main message/focus of doctrine/dogma the organisation pushes, is more attractive to females than to males.
I suppose in one way the attraction to this universe and the Romanticism therein is all about 'better the devil you know' kind of thinking and if you haven't experienced any alternate one, you only have this one to go by. It is called 'attachment'.

Like I said;

I am not sold on the idea of living forever in this universe, on the one planet...indeed there has been little said about what believers think the benefits might be...apart from vague romantic inferences to the 'wow' factor, which - as I have pointed out, is something not very well thought out to begin with.

And;

This universe is really drab. Sure it has a lot of bright sparkly things which look beautiful at a distance...but it doesn't even feel like home to me, and people who knock on my door and tell me I can live here forever if I believe what they believe, they just don't impress me,...

[youtube][/youtube]

If one studies the imagery above one can get much insight into how the minds of those who believe such doctrine/dogma think.

1: Gold throne in the clouds overlooking the earth. "Sky-daddy"
2: Sky daddy is white.
3: Protective bubble over the humans who want to live forever in this universe.
4: The sky daddy is going to delete me because I don't think living in this universe forever is a great option. :yikes: (yep - that is a really stuffed up belief system)


The imagery is false in relation to this universe. For that to even be a reality, it will mean being in some other, alternate reality anyway. It is not different than any imagery regarding being in 'heaven' and panders to those who understand that life on this planet could be lived differently BUT that this requires some Godlike being to come to the planet and 'make it so', which of course, could be done IN this universe ON this planet IF a far more advanced species were to 'make it so' but then - why would such a species DO this for humans AND want to be called Gods and worshiped as such?

History is littered with myths about such beings doing such things with humans and in all cases this is not ever favorable for the humans, and the systems created are still ones of disparity.

'Lords' 'Masters' etc...

Bottom line, as far as I am concerned, is that the whole things could easily have been created as a story by human masters of human populations (Rome springs to mind) to place hope in the ruled in such a promise and is an evasion of self responsibility and an allowing for evil to have its way while the folk allowing it focus their attention on the promise of a brighter future when 'one day' a God (or a God-like species) will come and remove all the nasty masters and make everything nice for the good people.

It takes a certain type of romanticist to believe such stories literally spoon-fed to them.

It is deception.

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