What is the Biblical view of hell?

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otseng
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What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

SallyF wrote: The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.
Divine Insight wrote: In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.
Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

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Post #451

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Did she die spiritually first or physically first?
Spiritually, obviously. I was very clear about that. As is Genesis 2 and 3.

And in God's economy, the spiritual -- that of His Spirit, and thus of Himself -- is all that ultimately matters. In the same way, spiritual Israel (which consists of all Christians, regardless of ethnicity; these are True Jews in the sense of Romans 2:28-29), not physical Israel (which consists only of ethnic Jews) is God's True Israel.

Sola del gloria!

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Post #452

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: The bible is clear what hell is: "HELL" is the symbolic common grave of mankind, the condition all people (good or bad) end up in of complete unconsciousness/utter non-existence.
I don't disagree, but the common grave of mankind is regarding temporal sense only. .

Maybe I should have been clearer...


When a person's literal heart stops beating , all his bodily functions cease and his physical body decomposes, he ceases to exist in any way and is in the exact same state of non-existence that he was before he was conceived. He does not continue to exist in a spiritual realm, no part of him survives his physical death; He no longer exists anywhere, in any form.

In the bible this is the condition of all those (good or bad) that are in the symbolic grave = "hell".


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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #453

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Maybe I should have been clearer...

When a person's literal heart stops beating, all his bodily functions cease and his physical body decomposes, he ceases to exist in any way and is in the exact same state of non-existence that he was before he was conceived. He no longer exists anywhere, in any form. In the bible this is the condition of all those (good or bad) that are in the symbolic grave "hell".
You were very clear; in the physical sense, temporally (relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs), this is absolutely true, and I agree wholeheartedly. But the physical/temporal is not all there is...

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Post #454

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Maybe I should have been clearer...

When a person's literal heart stops beating, all his bodily functions cease and his physical body decomposes, he ceases to exist in any way and is in the exact same state of non-existence that he was before he was conceived. He no longer exists anywhere, in any form. In the bible this is the condition of all those (good or bad) that are in the symbolic grave "hell".
You were very clear; in the physical sense, temporally (relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs), this is absolutely true, and I agree wholeheartedly. But the physical/temporal is not all there is...

The physical/temporal is all there is a of a human being.

When a human body ceases to function because its life ends, all aspects of that person ceases to exist, there is nothing else to him. The power that animates him is not the person (just as the electricity that animates your computer is not the computer, nor is it any "part" of the device) so all that person's thoughts, feelings and emotions cease from that moment. He cannot continue his existence elsewhere because there is nothing of him to continue.

All he is ceases to exist. And the physical/temporal is indeed all he is.

Is that clearer?




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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #455

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: All he is ceases to exist. And the physical/temporal is indeed all he is.

Is that clearer?
Yes, it's very clear, but it's very clearly Biblically wrong. Such was always the case.

But our disagreement on this, in the end, is not really of terrible importance, as I said several posts ago in my response to otseng. Belief in this point either way does not make or not make one a "better" Christian than another, and it does not make one a Christian and not the other. it is not essential to salvation.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

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Post #456

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: All he is ceases to exist. And the physical/temporal is indeed all he is.

Is that clearer?
Yes, it's very clear, but it's very clearly Biblically wrong.



No that is biblically absolutely correct and this thread includes the clear biblical evidence to that end.



DEATH

When a person's literal heart stops beating, all his bodily functions cease and his physical body decomposes. The person's life ends, all aspects of that person ceases to exist, there is nothing else to him. The power that animates him is not the person (just as the electricity that animates your computer is not the computer, nor is it any "part" of the device) so all that person's thoughts, feelings and emotions cease from that moment.

He cannot continue his existence elsewhere because there is nothing of him to continue. All he is ceases to exist. And the physical/temporal (animated by the life force from God ) is indeed all he is.


The above contain by my counts over 30 posts with detailed analysis of dozens of scriptures analysing relevant terms in the original bible languages of Greek and Hebrew, numerous scholarly references and repudiations of so-called contending texts.

If you feel there is biblical proof that there is non-physical part of a human being (seperate from the life force of God that animates him), a "something" that survives his death and continues conscious existence, feel free to attempt to prove so. If you, like many, don't claim to know for sure what you are referring to and reckon it is both unknowable and indefinable (and ultimately unimportant), you are welcome to your "conclusions" for what they are worth.



JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #457

Post by tam »

Peace to you,




Although some members here will not have seen it, for anyone else (if interested), the following post lists several passages which show that the physical is not all there is to us (mankind); and that we do not cease to exist upon our deaths (we sleep, yes, but we do not cease to exist).


viewtopic.php?p=973678#973678



Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #458

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to post 456 by JehovahsWitness]

Thank you, JW. I've seen it all; no need for any links. I'm sure you're a very good fellow; all Jehovah's Witnesses are, as far as I know. But on the subject of existence after physical death, the Jehovah's Witness organizational position is clearly Biblically wrong. Tam's link to her previous post citing 2 Peter 1:13 (I think the post actually says 2 Peter 2:13) above should be more than enough:
  • "I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (NASB) [alternatively 'body' (ESV, NIV); 'tent' (KJV, NKJV)], to stir you up by way of reminder, knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling (NASB) [alternatively 'body' (ESV, NIV); 'tent' (KJV, NKJV)] is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me."
But again, we can agree to disagree. No need to keep beating on each other. Peace, brother.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #459

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DOES 2 PETER 1:13 SUPPORT THE TEACHING OF AN IMMORTAL SOUL THAT SURVIVES THE DEATH OF THE BODY?

2 PETER 1:13

I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of my body , since I know that it will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me....since I know that it will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
In an attempt to squeeze the square peg of the teaching of the immortality of the soul into the round hole of clear bible teaching to the contrary, some resort to taking metaphor and euphemism literally. Both Peter and Paul likened their body to a "tent" and refered to laying it aside (an obvious euphemism for their death), but does this mean they were implying that they had a an immortal soul inside their bodies?

Firstly it is clear biblically that the word SOUL (not mentoned in any of these scriptures) refers to the whole flesh and blood physical being and applies to both humans and animals. Further notice Paul's words using the same metaphor
2 CORINTHIANS 5:1
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
Here far from depicting something released and floating up to heaven, Paul contrasts the "earthly tent" (physical body) to a heavenly "house" built by God. So he implies that his hope is not to have no body, but to have an alternative more permanent one built by God.

While some would argue that the person's SOUL is transferred from his physical body to a spiritual one, and others believe that the word SPIRIT refers to the essence of the person and is a word interchangeable with SOUL, both views are unbiblical.* A person's SPIRIT refers simply to the life force that animates their body and does not represent or carry their personality. So if a PERSON is the body + life (B+L=P) what is transferred from the physical to the spiritual and how?


* Is a SOUL and a(the) SPIRIT the same thing in the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 029#971029


MOVING ON UP:"ME", "MYSELF"AND *I*
  • Looking back at Peter's words we note he didn't say his SOUL or even his SPIRIT lives in his body he said "...as I live in the tent of my body". *I*, as in me, the person, the individual made up of thoughts, feelings, memories, devotion, weaknesses and strength. So Peter (and Paul) meant they entertained the hope that they THE PERSON would, by means of a resurrection, move on to heavenly life in heavenly bodies (see 1 Cor 15).
LIVING IN ONES BODY
  • Distinguishing between ones body and one's life as a person doesn't mean we have an immortal soul any more than someone saying "My feet are killing ME" mean you live inside your feet.
    To illustrate: While many disagree with the concept of "being born in the wrong body", the transgender idea is generally understood to be a figure of speech conveying that a person is psychologically discontent with ones physicality and longs for change, it is not taken to be proof they believe they can exist without a body.
    Paul and the Apostle Peter compared their earthly existence to a tent, clothes, a prison, not to convey they had an immortal component that would survive their physical death but to convey the idea that they await a resurrection where God would give them back their lives as individuals but this time in spirit bodies that would be immortal and free from the limitations of a physical existence and more in line with their spiritual desires.
    2 Corinthians 5:4

    So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life.

MORE THAN THE SUM OF ITS PARTS
  • Many find the idea that humans are purely physical difficult to accept because clearly humans display divine qualities. The truth of this however, lies not in an invisible part off us inside our bodies but in the miracle of God having made physical beings that were more than the sum of their parts. When the brain (a physical mass of cells) functions, physical as it is, it is capable of divine thought, spirituality, creativity, love, the person exists in a higher level than any of the animals. In short we may be only physical but we are in God's image and that means we all have a spark of the divine in us. Unfortunately, when our bodies breakdown and cease to function that spark dies too.

    Our hope lies, not it in pagan teachings of surviving our physical death, but in a resurrection whether in spirit bodies with heavenly life in view or in new physical ones to enjoy life on a paradise earth.



JW





SO CALLED IMMORTAL SOUL "PROOF TEXTS" DEBUNKED
Can Hebrews 10:39 be used to support the idea that a SOUL (NEPHESH) can surbive the death of a body?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 501#971501

Does Jesus say people have a SOUL and a body in Matthew 10:28?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 299#971299

Do Jesus words in Matthew 16:26 indicate a SOUL can survive the death of the body?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 644#972644

Can Philippians 2:10 be used to support the idea of consciousness after death?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 356#971356
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 8 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #460

Post by PinSeeker »

Yes, I know the Jehovah's Witness rationalization well. It's incorrect. We are made in God's image, and God is spirit (John 4:24). But we, as men, will only temporarily not have a physical body -- if we physically die before Jesus comes back. This was most assuredly the condition of Jesus, who was with His Father in paradise with the thief on His right the same day they were crucified (according to Jesus Himself on the cross) even as His physical body laid in the tomb until the resurrection. So it will be for us.

We've been through it all several times before. You hold your position, and it is Biblically incorrect. You say the same thing of me. We can leave it at that, surely. Surely we don't need to extend this thread another 46 pages (and probably beyond) only to come to the same differing conclusions.

Grace and peace to you, JH.

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