Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

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Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #1

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

.

First off, let me preface this by saying the following..

1. As mentioned on another thread, I have many years invested in dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's), from family, to friends, to strangers. I am very familiar with them and their theology.

2. I am beginning a series of threads attacking their "Christian" theology and doctrine. This one, as titled, deals with Jehovah's Witnesses and their false prophecies.

3. I have beef with, not only JW's, but ANYONE of whom I believe to be spreading false Christian doctrine. This includes, but not limited to...

A.) Mormons
B.) Catholics
C.) World Mission Society Church of God
D.) Hebrew Israelites

Jehovah's Witnesses are just one of many false Christian denominations. But, we are talking about Jehovah's Witnesses for now.

So, the question is ultimately; Why do I feel as if Jehovah's Witnesses are false teachers? There are many reasons, and one of those reasons is their many failed attempts at predicting prophecy.

Before I continue on post #2, keep in mind that future threads in this series will go straight to the gusto, with no preface.

Just FYI.
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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #201

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:02 am
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:22 am

The expression Jesus used "the times of the Gentiles" is his own; it is not found in Daniel, or anywhere else in the Bible.
IS IT BIBLICALLY SOUND TO TIE JESUS END TIME REFERENCES WITH THOSE IN THE BOOK OF DANIEL?

Yes, at least twice in his prophecy concerning the time of the end, Jesus referred to the contents of the book of the prophet Daniel; at Matthew 24 verse 15 where he (Jesus) speaks of "the disgusting thing that causes desolation" of Daniel 11:31 and his reference to"the great tribulation" (compare Daniel 12 :1). The context and content of Jesus words at Matthew 24 and 25 indicate there is indeed a link between what he was saying and the words of the Prophet Danel

"LET THE READER USE DISCERENMENT"

But, some object, Jesus also says nothing about a 2520 year period, or about Babylon. True, but Jesus in giving his end time prophecies makes an interesting note, he says : "Let the reader use discernement". The Greek word translated in the NWT as "discernment" is anaginosko from the greek "ana" which, according to Strongs as a prefix can mean "repetition, intensity, reversal" and "ginosko" which means to "know" (absolutely) ... to perceive, to be sure, to understand". So Jesus is encouraging the readers to seek the understanding or the true meaning of what they are reading. If true understanding came to anyone that was merely literate, Jesus' words would be redundant, Jesus was saying more than understand the words, he was urging readers to see what was not clearly evident.
Interestingly we can also note, at the time Jesus words were not written down, he was thus evidently encouraging the readers of existing Hebrew scripture to understand the significance of what they had read (in prophecies long ago recorded) as said passages relate to what he was teaching.
Those that say, I can't see that number, he didnt say that word, are clearly missing the point of Jesus prophecy and prophecy in general: critical thinking skills must be applied to link what is being said to existing scripture. It is evident Jesus was speaking of Jerusalem, the Kingdom promises, his upcoming judgement and that all these events had something to do with Daniels ancient prophecies.

Today, for many, all this is either irrelevant ("I don't know what the prophcies mean and I do not care to know") , a confusing mystery ("....we don't have a clear understanding of the passage in question") or a "big mishmash" (MISHMASH implying: one should not attempt to link Jesus words with earlier prophecy, despite the fact that he himself did exactly that). Serious bible students however have long understood Daniels prophecies run from his day all the way down to the last days, the coming of the promised Messiah and beyond. That many simply don't undestand this is to be expected, afterall the angel's closing words to the prophet Daniel speaking of those alive during the "end times" were as follows ...
DANIEL 12:10

"Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand."
JEHOVAHS WITNESS
Thankyou for this post.

Today, after I had posted to onewithhim, I read yours again.

Having done so, I realised how well you had written, and that is why I had not replied earlier and am doing so now.

Yes, Jesus in Matthew 24:15 does directly connect what he is saying with some prophecy in Daniel.

The disciples had asked him two questions, and what he said in this verese was part of his reply was to the first one.

Moving on, Jesus uses "the times of the Gentiles" rather than "a time, and times, and half a time"

The latter phrase appears once each in Daniel 7, Daniel 12, and Revelation 12.

So does it signify the same period of time in all three passages?









To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD'S KINGDOM, 1914 and ... THE GENTILE TIMES
[/quote]

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #202

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:14 am [Replying to Checkpoint in post #197]
Unfortunately you won't take any explanation for those things. A few of us here have explained ad nauseum how we can scripturally arrive at our explanations, and JehovahsWitness has supplied many links to sound scriptural information, but sound reasoning doesn't seem to be alive and well with some folks here. Do you actually read the info on those links? Our position is fully backed up, yet the same old comments keep coming, over and over. Well....you can lead a horse to water.....
It depends on the quality and source of the water, onewithhim.

Those explanations satisfy JWs, but not others. And vice versa.

You have chosen not to answer any of the specific points I raised.
Not at all. Anyone who has been following this will know that I already have answered your specific points.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #203

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:47 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:28 pm
onewithhim wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:14 am [Replying to Checkpoint in post #197]
Unfortunately you won't take any explanation for those things. A few of us here have explained ad nauseum how we can scripturally arrive at our explanations, and JehovahsWitness has supplied many links to sound scriptural information, but sound reasoning doesn't seem to be alive and well with some folks here. Do you actually read the info on those links? Our position is fully backed up, yet the same old comments keep coming, over and over. Well....you can lead a horse to water.....
It depends on the quality and source of the water, onewithhim.

Those explanations satisfy JWs, but not others. And vice versa.

You have chosen not to answer any of the specific points I raised.
Not at all. Anyone who has been following this will know that I already have answered your specific points.
Well then, please list the post numbers of those answers to the specific points I raised in my posts 197 and 201.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #204

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #204]

Regarding your post #201, you addressed that post to JehovahsWitness, so I didn't reply to that. I figured they could handle that quite well.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #205

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:59 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #196]
. It seems he has contunued to select people down throughout the centuries, to the 20th century when he began ruling (see 1 Thess 4:17) and even to our present 21st century.
The verse you referred to has not yet happened.

It is about the resurrection of all believers at his coming, to meet the Lord and be with him forever.

This verse(and its context) says nothing about any 144,000, about him beginning ruling, or about ruling with him.
(Your post #197 was addressed to JehovahsWitness as well, but I decided to add to it.)

That is right, all the anointed have not gone to heaven yet to be with Jesus. There are around 8,000 left on Earth still. It is not about the resurrection of all believers. That happens during the Millennial Reign, and is called the second resurrection. The anointed are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection (Revelation 20:5), so there has to be a second. That is for all the people who will live on the earth forever. (Revelation 20:11-15)

You have been shown scriptures supporting the time that Jesus began ruling. Bible chronology is quite specific, and I'm sure that, along with explanations, JehovahsWitness has provided links to material explaining the Bible chronology. 1914 is a very significant year, and an intense study of the Bible can show that what we are saying is true. We have been trying to explain these things, but a mere skimming through explanations doesn't do it. Ask to have a Bible study with one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

(That is why anyone will be going to heaven---to rule with Christ. What else would they be doing? That it will be 144,000 that will rule is shown in the 14th chapter of Revelation where 144,000 are figuratively standing on heavenly Mt. Zion with Christ and are the only ones who will master a special song. Where are all the other billions of people who don't master the song? They are on the earth, ready to live in paradise conditions with the help and guidance of the 144,000 with Christ.)

www.jw.org

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #206

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:38 am
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:59 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #196]
. It seems he has contunued to select people down throughout the centuries, to the 20th century when he began ruling (see 1 Thess 4:17) and even to our present 21st century.
The verse you referred to has not yet happened.

It is about the resurrection of all believers at his coming, to meet the Lord and be with him forever.

This verse(and its context) says nothing about any 144,000, about him beginning ruling, or about ruling with him.
(Your post #197 was addressed to JehovahsWitness as well, but I decided to add to it.)

That is right, all the anointed have not gone to heaven yet to be with Jesus. There are around 8,000 left on Earth still. It is not about the resurrection of all believers. That happens during the Millennial Reign, and is called the second resurrection. The anointed are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection (Revelation 20:5), so there has to be a second. That is for all the people who will live on the earth forever. (Revelation 20:11-15)

You have been shown scriptures supporting the time that Jesus began ruling. Bible chronology is quite specific, and I'm sure that, along with explanations, JehovahsWitness has provided links to material explaining the Bible chronology. 1914 is a very significant year, and an intense study of the Bible can show that what we are saying is true. We have been trying to explain these things, but a mere skimming through explanations doesn't do it. Ask to have a Bible study with one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

(That is why anyone will be going to heaven---to rule with Christ. What else would they be doing? That it will be 144,000 that will rule is shown in the 14th chapter of Revelation where 144,000 are figuratively standing on heavenly Mt. Zion with Christ and are the only ones who will master a special song. Where are all the other billions of people who don't master the song? They are on the earth, ready to live in paradise conditions with the help and guidance of the 144,000 with Christ.)

www.jw.org
Thanks for this post, onewithhim, as your answer to my post 197.

It is an example of what I have come to expect from anyone who bases their version of truth to a particular established way of thinking on a specific aspect of biblical faith.

That is not what I aim to do. God's word is truth, Jesus is the Truth, and it is the Spirit that leads us into truth. Not an organization, not orthodoxy, not traditional doctrine.

This is why I agree with some of what each teaches, and disagree with some of what each teaches.

Thus I consider what you wrote on another thread, to be an accurate summation of whoever from whatever, at times, in this sub-forum.

I refer to something you wrote only a day or two ago. It was this:

"There is no reasoning with a mind-set like this."

How would you react if I posted this to you, onewithhim?:

" Ask to have a Bible study with one of" traditional doctrine or orthodoxy.

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #207

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:10 am
onewithhim wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:38 am
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:59 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #196]
. It seems he has contunued to select people down throughout the centuries, to the 20th century when he began ruling (see 1 Thess 4:17) and even to our present 21st century.
The verse you referred to has not yet happened.

It is about the resurrection of all believers at his coming, to meet the Lord and be with him forever.

This verse(and its context) says nothing about any 144,000, about him beginning ruling, or about ruling with him.
(Your post #197 was addressed to JehovahsWitness as well, but I decided to add to it.)

That is right, all the anointed have not gone to heaven yet to be with Jesus. There are around 8,000 left on Earth still. It is not about the resurrection of all believers. That happens during the Millennial Reign, and is called the second resurrection. The anointed are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection (Revelation 20:5), so there has to be a second. That is for all the people who will live on the earth forever. (Revelation 20:11-15)

You have been shown scriptures supporting the time that Jesus began ruling. Bible chronology is quite specific, and I'm sure that, along with explanations, JehovahsWitness has provided links to material explaining the Bible chronology. 1914 is a very significant year, and an intense study of the Bible can show that what we are saying is true. We have been trying to explain these things, but a mere skimming through explanations doesn't do it. Ask to have a Bible study with one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

(That is why anyone will be going to heaven---to rule with Christ. What else would they be doing? That it will be 144,000 that will rule is shown in the 14th chapter of Revelation where 144,000 are figuratively standing on heavenly Mt. Zion with Christ and are the only ones who will master a special song. Where are all the other billions of people who don't master the song? They are on the earth, ready to live in paradise conditions with the help and guidance of the 144,000 with Christ.)

www.jw.org
Thanks for this post, onewithhim, as your answer to my post 197.

It is an example of what I have come to expect from anyone who bases their version of truth to a particular established way of thinking on a specific aspect of biblical faith.

That is not what I aim to do. God's word is truth, Jesus is the Truth, and it is the Spirit that leads us into truth. Not an organization, not orthodoxy, not traditional doctrine.

This is why I agree with some of what each teaches, and disagree with some of what each teaches.

Thus I consider what you wrote on another thread, to be an accurate summation of whoever from whatever, at times, in this sub-forum.

I refer to something you wrote only a day or two ago. It was this:

"There is no reasoning with a mind-set like this."

How would you react if I posted this to you, onewithhim?:

" Ask to have a Bible study with one of" traditional doctrine or orthodoxy.
Why don't you take each point that I made and comment on why you disagree, rather than always blanket statements? Can you be specific as to which points you disagree with and, specifically, why?

For me to have a Bible study with one of traditional doctrine would be redundant. I studied with those people for years when I was young. I thought I knew the Bible pretty well, and took on a JW just to prove her wrong. I ended up realizing that I knew practically nothing about the Bible (but a lot about the doctrines of the churches).

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #208

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:17 pm Scripturally speaking there is nothing "arrogant" about believing one has found the truth. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe they are the source of truth, only that they have come to understand and love what they believe to be bible truths and are doing their best to live up to that privilege.
I agree. But when someone leaves the organization, this person is said to have "left" the truth.

And if this person returns, they are said to have come "back" to the truth.

And if a new person is converted into the organization, they are said to have "found" or "joined" the truth.

I already know the game, JW.

Jehovah's Witnesses likens the "truth" to their organization, as opposed to likening it to Jesus Christ, who explicitly stated that he is the truth.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

When a person leaves Jesus Christ, only then can it be said that this person has left the truth...NOT when they leave any man-made organization.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:17 pm DO JEHOVAHS WITNESSES CLAIM TO BE THE TRUTH?
No, that is not an expression you will find in our literature. We believe we "have" the truth (as in, we have found the truth (see above). We believe we have been chosen as a body/ an organisation to represent true Christianity and teach bible truths to others. But it's Gods word (which contains truths revealed through Christ) that *IS* truth. Jesus alone as Gods spokesman can claim to be the truth. Accusations that JWs claim such a position for themselves are entirely baseless.
Your literature downplays their follies of the past, and gaslights readers by way of having them question their own sanity. For example, even the whole false prophecy business; the latest WTS literature will have readers question their own comprehension of what they've read from past editions, like "wait a minute, didn't the 1970 edition state that the end of times was expected in 1975".

But the latest WTS editions will say "No, we didn't state/mean that. What we meant was X, Y, and Z".

So, we are to take your literature with a grain of salt.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:17 pm IS IT NOT WRONG TO SAY ONE HAS THE TRUTH?

Not scripturally, no.
JOHN 4:14 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

But whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty again—ever! In fact, the water I will give him will become a well of water springing up within him for eternal life."”
Figuratively speaking, Jesus himself explained that the truths he taught are not something static, but if applied become a internal force for good, stimulating believers to speak and act in line with Gods holy spirit. In short scripturally, saying one HAS the truth (within them) is neither neither bad nor arrogant.
But that isn't the point of contention. I actually agree with you. However, saying you have the truth means you have JESUS CHRIST, and not that you have the truth because you belong to an organization.

That is the point of contention. As long as you can acknowledge that one can have the truth (Jesus Christ) without being part of your organization, there should be no issues here.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:17 pm CONCLUSION Most people that claim to be Christians today do not believe God has an earthly organisation or that he has appointed a "faithful and discreet slave" (Mat 24:45) to the office of oversight within; but both notions are entirely scriptural. It is not presumtuous or inappropriate to use expressions such as "being in" or "having the truth" as these are biblical ideas that in no way challenges Jesus position as the chief agent of truth.
Faithful AND discreet? How are JW's discreet when they can be found knocking on doors and on street corners evangelizing?

Doesn't sound very discreet to me.
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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #209

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:08 pm
Faithful AND discreet? How are JW's discreet when they can be found knocking on doors and on street corners evangelizing?

Doesn't sound very discreet to me.
Are you suggesting there is somethjng fundamentally unwise or ill advised with public evangelizing or house to house preaching?


ACTS 5 : 41, 42

The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing that they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. Every day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , THE 2ND COMING and ...THE GREAT COMMISSION,
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: False Prophecies

Post #210

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:05 am
Are you suggesting there is somethjng fundamentally unwise or ill advised with public evangelizing or house to house preaching?

ACTS 5 : 41, 42

The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing that they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. Every day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.[/color]
No, that is not what I am saying at all.

First off, let me give props where its due; Jehovah's Witnesses should be commended for their evangelizing efforts...and are second-best-to-none when it comes to getting their message out to the masses.

The problem is, the message is flawed. However, that aside...

My point is; Jehovah's Witnesses are going around saying they (their organization) is the faithful and discreet slave that Jesus was referring to (Matthew 24:45-47).

Now, the word "discreet" has at least 2 definitions (one of which I was aware of)...but the definition that I've known of means..

"someone or something that is appropriately quiet, prudent, and restrained."

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/discreet

And I can hardly see how this would define JW's and their evangelizing efforts.

But the other definition..

"having or showing discernment or good judgment in conduct and especially in speech" : PRUDENT

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discreet

From the outside looking in, the latter can be applied to JW's, from what I've seen. :approve:

I retract the statement.
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