Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Post by Eloi »

What do Scriptures say about Jesus before he was born as a human? What did Jesus himself say about his past, before he was born? What other reasoning based on the Scriptures can we make to know the reality about Jesus before he was born on earth?

Some biblical statements show that Jesus already existed before he was born as a human. These quotes from the book of John are some examples:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)
... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Some teachers of Christendom teach that Jesus only came into being when he was born as a man. How do they interpret these biblical quotes about the pre-existence of Jesus?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #32

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:16 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:52 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #23]

I'm sorry, Miles, but you and I are in different ball parks. You somehow have differentiated between the Word and Jesus Christ. As long as this goes on, and, speaking about you and me...."Never the twain shall meet."
If they were not different, the Word could have done what Jesus did.

But as a spiritual being, the Word could not die, thus Jesus was required.

That's what the God inspired scriptures state.
Spirit persons CAN die. Satan is a spirit person and he's going to die, at the end of the thousand years. It was HIS LIE that said that people would not die if they rebelled against God. Both human and spirit persons can die.

You forget that JESUS (before he became "Jesus") was in heaven with Jehovah before coming to Earth. He was not just an ordinary man. He was a mighty spirit person---Michael the Archangel---before coming here and being given the name "Jesus." THIS is what the God-inspired scriptures state. It seems that you have failed to consider many passages from the Scriptures.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #33

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmSpirit persons CAN die.
Definition of person: a human being regarded as an individual.

Persons can die because they are physical human beings.

Spiritual beings are not physical beings or persons. They cannot die.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmSatan is a spirit person and he's going to die, at the end of the thousand years.
Satan, or the devil, is a spiritual bodied being which cannot be killed. He is the only being which is stated to be tormented day and night forever and ever in the lake of fire:
Revelation 20:10 wrote:And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
A loving God would kill Satan if He could. But that is impossible because God created Satan as immortal.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmYou forget that JESUS (before he became "Jesus") was in heaven with Jehovah before coming to Earth. He was not just an ordinary man. He was a mighty spirit person---Michael the Archangel---before coming here and being given the name "Jesus." THIS is what the God-inspired scriptures state.
You are equating The Word with Jesus.

The "definition" of Jesus in the Bible is "the Word made flesh."

The Word made flesh did not exist until 2021 years ago.

And the Word made flesh completed His mission and no longer exists as flesh.

Angels can appear as men, I suppose. But no angel is a man. All mankind is created "a little lower than the angels." This includes the man Jesus Christ. Michael the Archangel was a spiritual being, just as the Word. But only the Word was made flesh as Jesus.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmIt seems that you have failed to consider many passages from the Scriptures.
But now you know that spiritual beings cannot be killed, that Jesus and the Word are different, and that the Word (being immortal) could not accomplish the mission required of Jesus because the Word could not live a sinless human life and become an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant when he died -- as Jesus did.

Always good to hear from you.

God Bless!! :D

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #34

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:53 pm
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmSpirit persons CAN die.
Definition of person: a human being regarded as an individual.

Persons can die because they are physical human beings.

Spiritual beings are not physical beings or persons. They cannot die.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmSatan is a spirit person and he's going to die, at the end of the thousand years.
Satan, or the devil, is a spiritual bodied being which cannot be killed. He is the only being which is stated to be tormented day and night forever and ever in the lake of fire:
Revelation 20:10 wrote:And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
A loving God would kill Satan if He could. But that is impossible because God created Satan as immortal.
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmYou forget that JESUS (before he became "Jesus") was in heaven with Jehovah before coming to Earth. He was not just an ordinary man. He was a mighty spirit person---Michael the Archangel---before coming here and being given the name "Jesus." THIS is what the God-inspired scriptures state.
You are equating The Word with Jesus.

The "definition" of Jesus in the Bible is "the Word made flesh."
The "definition" of Jesus' name is "Salvation of Jehovah," that is, the means by which Jehovah saves the world of mankind. He is the only being that fits the description of the Word. I have explained what the Word has done and why Jesus is called the Word.

You quibble over what "person" means. Really? OK, we'll use the word "Being" then. Satan is a spirit being, and spirit beings were not given immortality when they were created. You have forgotten already that Jesus has been the ONLY ONE who was immortal.

Jesus, "...who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see..." (I Timothy 6:15,16) I'm wondering why you do not take this into consideration.

There are no other spirit beings that are immortal. Only Jesus. (Until his co-rulers rise to be with him in heaven, which will be completed sometime before Armageddon.) But until those anointed persons are resurrected to heaven, Jesus is the only spirit being who is immortal.

The Lake of Fire is SYMBOLIC of total destruction. Satan will be completely destroyed---DEAD---at the end of the Thousand Years.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #35

Post by tam »

Peace to you both,
myth-one.com wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:16 am
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:06 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:39 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:56 am Jesus being the Word meant that he was always Jehovah's spokesman.
So Jesus was a man in the beginning, and is a man at present, in the Kingdom of God?
No, Jesus was not a man in the beginning of his life. He was a mighty spirit person in heaven with God.
No, that was the Word.
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:06 pmHe was born on Earth as a man,
Yes, that was when the Word was made flesh as the man Jesus Christ. Jesus had a physical birth into a human world.
onewithhim wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:06 pm. . . and when he was resurrected after his death he went back to the spirit realm and ascended to heaven as a spirit, just as God is (John 4:24; I Timothy 6:16).
That's the Word again.
Christ (Jaheshua) IS the Word.

Same person/being... just a different body.

Rev 19:13, this is Christ.

We also know that the Word was described as the true light who gives light to everyone was coming into the world (John 1:9)... and we know that Christ said that HE is the Light (John 8:12).


Christ is Himself the Word, the Word who became flesh and made His dwelling among us (for a time).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #36

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:03 am [Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were.
Jaheshua was born.


The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.
He also descends with the trumpet of God. But that does not make Him God.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those things accompany/announce His return. The trumpet of God, the voice of an archangel. (and Michael is one of the chief princes - Daniel 10:13, which means that there is more than one chief prince. Christ, however, is the Prince OF princes, King OF kings, Lord OF lords.)


**

And just as Christ never taught that He is God (JAH), Christ never taught that He is Michael. Men have taught these things, but not even the apostles taught this (nor did Christ teach this to the apostles, and why would He not have done so if it were true?) Indeed, Miles provided some verses earlier that speak against Christ being an angel, just as there are verses that speak against Christ being God (meaning JAH). Why must men keep adding to what Christ said about who He is? Why not take Him at HIS word? He said that He is the Son of God. He said that He is the Word, the Light, the Truth, the Life, the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness. He never once said that He is an archangel, or that He is Michael, or that He is "YHWH".






Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #37

Post by myth-one.com »


onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmSatan is a spirit person and he's going to die, at the end of the thousand years.
No. The scriptures state that Satan, or the devil, will be tormented day and night forever and ever in the lake of fire:
Revelation 20:10 wrote:And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
How can he be tormented forever in the lake of fire if he is dead?
onewithhim wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:43 pmYou forget that JESUS (before he became "Jesus") was in heaven with Jehovah before coming to Earth. He was not just an ordinary man. He was a mighty spirit person---Michael the Archangel---before coming here and being given the name "Jesus." THIS is what the God-inspired scriptures state.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:53 pm You are equating The Word with Jesus.

The "definition" of Jesus in the Bible is "the Word made flesh."
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pm The "definition" of Jesus' name is "Salvation of Jehovah," that is, the means by which Jehovah saves the world of mankind.
OK.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pm He is the only being that fits the description of the Word.
Here is further information about Jesus:

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels":
Hebrews 2:9 wrote:But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
That's exactly as man was created:
Psalm 8:4-5" wrote:What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,
The Bible confirms that Jesus was a man:
1 Timothy 2:5 wrote:For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pm You quibble over what "person" means. Really? OK, we'll use the word "Being" then.
OK.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pmSatan is a spirit being, and spirit beings were not given immortality when they were created.
They most certainly were!!

Man was created originally with two differences between man and the angels. Those two differences were knowledge of good and evil and body type. Upon eating of the tree of knowledge, there now remains one, and only one, difference between man and the angels. That difference is body type -- natural verses spiritual.

Upon eating from the tree of knowledge, mankind was expelled from the Garden of Eden to separate them from the Tree of Life, lest they eat from the tree and live forever like God and the angels:
Genesis 3:22-23 wrote:And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Later in the New Testament, Jesus states that there are two type of bodies, natural and spiritual.

Man has already been born with a natural, physical body.

Jesus confirms that man must be born a second time of the Spirit to inherit the Kingdom of God:
John 3:5-7 wrote:Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The inheritance of both testaments of the Bible is everlasting life. There are two body types, natural and physical. Man is born with a natural body which will die. The only way for any man to live forever is to somehow obtain an everlasting spiritual body. Thus man must be born again of the Spirit -- as that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is the only path to everlasting life.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pm You have forgotten already that Jesus has been the ONLY ONE who was immortal.
I haven't forgotten it, it simply isn't true. If Jesus was immortal, then He could die as required, and the scriptures logically fall to pieces. In that case, we have no Savior.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pm Jesus, "...who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see..." (I Timothy 6:15,16) I'm wondering why you do not take this into consideration.
This verse means that Jesus is the only human to ever become an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant. He earned that inheritance as a man living under the original covenant. The wages of sin is death, He never sinned, thus He is an heir to everlasting life under the original covenant. He then offers His inheritance to whosoever believeth in Him as their Savior under the New Testament Covenant!
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pm There are no other spirit beings that are immortal.
God is Spirit. God isn't immortal?

All spiritual beings are immortal.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pm The Lake of Fire is SYMBOLIC of total destruction. Satan will be completely destroyed---DEAD---at the end of the Thousand Years.
Satan's power will be completely destroyed.

Satan is immortal and will spend eternity being tormented in the lake of fire.

This will not be physical torture since the devil's spiritual body does not feel pain. It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc. He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for eternity.

The original angels were created directly as spiritual beings. Satan led the rebellion against God, and is the only rebel to be punished eternally. All others rebellious angels He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment.

Their sentences will be finite periods -- not eternal.

God is Love, and never again wants to punish any being for all eternity. Thus God creates man as mortal beings and allows them to accept or reject everlasting life.

The original angels had no say in being created as immortals.

But being immortal is obviously a requirement for the purpose of angelic work, or God would not have made them with that characteristic.
==================================================

Due to the rebellion of some of the earthly angelic caretakers under Satan, the earth became without form, void, and dark.

God returned and re-created the earth, and created man a little lower than the angels.

Those of mankind who choose to obey and follow the commandments of God will be born again as spiritual beings and replace the earthly rebels.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #38

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:17 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:03 am [Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were.
Jaheshua was born.


The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.
He also descends with the trumpet of God. But that does not make Him God.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those things accompany/announce His return. The trumpet of God, the voice of an archangel. (and Michael is one of the chief princes - Daniel 10:13, which means that there is more than one chief prince. Christ, however, is the Prince OF princes, King OF kings, Lord OF lords.)


**

And just as Christ never taught that He is God (JAH), Christ never taught that He is Michael. Men have taught these things, but not even the apostles taught this (nor did Christ teach this to the apostles, and why would He not have done so if it were true?) Indeed, Miles provided some verses earlier that speak against Christ being an angel, just as there are verses that speak against Christ being God (meaning JAH). Why must men keep adding to what Christ said about who He is? Why not take Him at HIS word? He said that He is the Son of God. He said that He is the Word, the Light, the Truth, the Life, the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness. He never once said that He is an archangel, or that He is Michael, or that He is "YHWH".






Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Of course Jesus never "taught" that he was Michael. Why make an issue out of what his name was before he came to the earth? He wouldn't do that and neither would his disciples. There were many more serious issues to speak about.

Jesus came down from heaven before his name was called "Jesus" by Joseph and Mary. After he was born as a human he was named Jesus. What was his name before he was named Jesus? Certainly he had a name.

You say that Michael is "one of the princes," yet I believe that Daniel 10:13 means, in the original Hebrew, that Michael was the FIRST of the princes, or, the GREATEST of the princes. I think that is what the verse is saying. I have researched it and that is what I see as sensible.

You are actually saying that there is another Being in heaven who can stand up for, or, mediate for, the people with God, besides Jesus Christ---if Michael is not Jesus. There are two Beings, you say, that can save the people! Michael certainly is described in Daniel chapter 12 as Jesus is described in Scripture, particularly Matthew chapter 24. In Matthew there is no other Being mentioned at all that can stand up for the people besides Jesus. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that Michael and Jesus are the same.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #39

Post by Bust Nak »

William wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:45 am No doubt some opinionated twerps think Jehovah's Witnesses are deluding themselves too.

Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

For complimenting or agreeing use the Thank button. For anything else use PM.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #40

Post by Revelations won »

To all poster's on this thread,

We cannot fully understand the pre-mortal existence of Christ without understanding our own pre-mortal existence.

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

In the above we so duly note that the posterity of Adam are herin referred to as “the sons of God”.

Also carefully observe what is also stated in:

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present

Job 38:
4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Hosea 1:
10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Acts 17:
27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God
, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Philippians 2:
15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Revelation 21:
6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

My observation is from the many scriptures quoted above From Genesis to Revelation, that we are clearly identified as the sons and daughters of the living God.

As part of the “great plan of salvation” the scriptures make it very clear that we all have a pre-mortal life and can receive all that the Father hath as heirs and joint heirs with Christ.

So now you have my "take" on the above doctrine taught by the scriptures.

Best regards,
RW

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