Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

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Post by Eloi »

What do Scriptures say about Jesus before he was born as a human? What did Jesus himself say about his past, before he was born? What other reasoning based on the Scriptures can we make to know the reality about Jesus before he was born on earth?

Some biblical statements show that Jesus already existed before he was born as a human. These quotes from the book of John are some examples:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)
... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Some teachers of Christendom teach that Jesus only came into being when he was born as a man. How do they interpret these biblical quotes about the pre-existence of Jesus?

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #41

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Revelations won in post #40]

"The sons of God" in Genesis 6:2 are the angels. They looked down and saw human women and desired them. Then they acted on that desire, and they had children with the women who were the Nephilim---giant demonic bullies. That is all referred to as the angels forsaking their proper dwelling place and coming to earth to co-habit with humans. (Jude verse 6.)

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #42

Post by Revelations won »

Onewithhim said:

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by onewithhim » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:59 pm
[Replying to Revelations won in post #40]

"The sons of God" in Genesis 6:2 are the angels. They looked down and saw human women and desired them. Then they acted on that desire, and they had children with the women who were the Nephilim---giant demonic bullies. That is all referred to as the angels forsaking their proper dwelling place and coming to earth to co-habit with humans. (Jude verse 6.)

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

My response:

Come now, onewithhim, where in the scriptures do you clearly show that the “Sons of God” were angels who married the daughters of men and had children?

Where do you have any evidence and proof that the angels referred to in Jude 6 have any clear relationship to those angels you claim to have married the daughters of men? I for one would like to see your evidence.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #43

Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:18 pm Onewithhim said:

Post
by onewithhim » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:59 pm
[Replying to Revelations won in post #40]

"The sons of God" in Genesis 6:2 are the angels. They looked down and saw human women and desired them. Then they acted on that desire, and they had children with the women who were the Nephilim---giant demonic bullies. That is all referred to as the angels forsaking their proper dwelling place and coming to earth to co-habit with humans. (Jude verse 6.)

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

My response:

Come now, onewithhim, where in the scriptures do you clearly show that the “Sons of God” were angels who married the daughters of men and had children?

Where do you have any evidence and proof that the angels referred to in Jude 6 have any clear relationship to those angels you claim to have married the daughters of men? I for one would like to see your evidence.

Kind regards,
RW
It is reasonably clear to careful thought that the angels in Jude are the very same ones as in Genesis chapter 6. Especially when we read Peter's version of events. Who were "the angels who sinned"? (2 Peter 2:4) What other place in the Scriptures are angels mentioned as sinning and becoming Satan's followers?

"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus [a debased spiritual condition], putting them in chains of dense darkness [spiritually] to be reserved for judgment." (2Peter 2:4)

Peter referrs to them also in his first letter: "[Christ] was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. And in this state [spirit body] he went and preached to the spirits in prison [spiritual darkness], who had formerly been disobedient when God was was patiently waiting in Noah's day while the ark was being constructed..." (I Peter 3:18-20).

It is pretty clear that the sons of God in Genesis are the same angels that are referred to by Jude and Peter.


(P.S.....Do you really think, also, that human men and women would make children that were GIGANTIC and vicious? There were A LOT of them apparently, for them to be mentioned in more than one place in the Bible. They were a real huge problem, and their presence was eradicated when the Flood came.)

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #44

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:38 pm
tam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:17 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:03 am [Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were.
Jaheshua was born.


The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.
He also descends with the trumpet of God. But that does not make Him God.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those things accompany/announce His return. The trumpet of God, the voice of an archangel. (and Michael is one of the chief princes - Daniel 10:13, which means that there is more than one chief prince. Christ, however, is the Prince OF princes, King OF kings, Lord OF lords.)


**

And just as Christ never taught that He is God (JAH), Christ never taught that He is Michael. Men have taught these things, but not even the apostles taught this (nor did Christ teach this to the apostles, and why would He not have done so if it were true?) Indeed, Miles provided some verses earlier that speak against Christ being an angel, just as there are verses that speak against Christ being God (meaning JAH). Why must men keep adding to what Christ said about who He is? Why not take Him at HIS word? He said that He is the Son of God. He said that He is the Word, the Light, the Truth, the Life, the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness. He never once said that He is an archangel, or that He is Michael, or that He is "YHWH".






Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Of course Jesus never "taught" that he was Michael. Why make an issue out of what his name was before he came to the earth? He wouldn't do that and neither would his disciples. There were many more serious issues to speak about.
You tell me. If it wasn't important then, why is it so important now that some men many centuries later are making an issue out of what they think was His name before He came to earth?

Jesus came down from heaven before his name was called "Jesus" by Joseph and Mary. After he was born as a human he was named Jesus. What was his name before he was named Jesus? Certainly he had a name.
Christ is still called by His name (Jaheshua) even after He returned to His Father. He is very specifically called by His same name as when on earth in Revelation (see 22:16). The fact that He is still called by His same name, and Michael is also mentioned by name in Revelation, should indicate that they are two different people.

You say that Michael is "one of the princes," yet I believe that Daniel 10:13 means, in the original Hebrew, that Michael was the FIRST of the princes, or, the GREATEST of the princes. I think that is what the verse is saying. I have researched it and that is what I see as sensible.
Sensible because that is what fits with the doctrine?

Michael is one of the chief princes (there are more than one). Michael is not the Prince OF princes. Michael supports Christ (the Prince OF princes).
You are actually saying that there is another Being in heaven who can stand up for, or, mediate for, the people with God, besides Jesus Christ---if Michael is not Jesus. There are two Beings, you say, that can save the people!


I am not saying that, and the phrase is not 'stand up FOR'. The phrase is stand up. Stand up does not equal mediate. These are not synonyms. Just because Michael stands up does not mean that Michael is Christ, or that Michael is mediating on behalf of people.
Michael certainly is described in Daniel chapter 12 as Jesus is described in Scripture, particularly Matthew chapter 24.


Actually no. The being who is speaking to Daniel that last time (Daniel 10) is described in the same way as Christ is described in Revelation.

Compare Daniel's description of the One who came to Him that last time (Chapter 10):

I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.


With John's description of Christ (Rev 1):

And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

It is not Gabriel speaking that last time to Daniel. If it had been Gabriel this last time, Daniel would have recognized him, as he did the previous time (Chapter 9):

"... while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me..."



Christ is the One speaking to Daniel in Chapter 10 (Daniel also called him, 'my lord'). Michael is the one who supports Christ.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #45

Post by William »

[Replying to Eloi in post #1]

Biblical Jesus speaks of his pre-existence often, In the Gospels.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #46

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:25 pm [Replying to Eloi in post #1]

Biblical Jesus speaks of his pre-existence often, In the Gospels.
Biblical Jesus was a man.

Man is flesh, and a man's existence begins at birth when he is born of the flesh. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."

So Jesus cannot speak of His existence prior to His birth, because He did not exist prior to His birth.

Jesus was not the Word.

Jesus was the Word made flesh, and that was accomplished about 2,022 years ago.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #47

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:48 pm Who were "the angels who sinned"? (2 Peter 2:4) What other place in the Scriptures are angels mentioned as sinning and becoming Satan's followers?
===================================================

In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:
Luke 4:5-7 wrote:And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased.

Previous to this event, Lucifer had desired to become equal unto the most High God:
Isaiah 14:12-14 wrote:. . . I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars (angels) of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Thus Satan and angels under his command sinned by leaving their first estate (the earth) and rebelling against God in heaven. They were repelled and cast back down to their first estate -- the earth:
Revelation 12:9 wrote:And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Although the exact number under Satan's authority is unknown, it was one-third of the total number of the angels of heaven:
Revelation 12:4 wrote:And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth...
"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the book of Revelation.

So 1/3 of the "angels of heaven" were led by Satan into sin by waring against God in heaven:
Revelation 12:7 wrote:And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
This war occurred sometime between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and their rebellion and neglect of their first estate (the earth) resulted in their first estate becoming formless, void, and dark.

So God returned to the earth in Genesis 1:3, recreated the earth, created man lower than the angels, and gave man dominion over the earth.

Man is being groomed to eventually replace these rebellious angels.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #48

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:43 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:38 pm
tam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:17 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:03 am [Replying to Miles in post #17]

Jesus was created, just as the angels were.
Jaheshua was born.


The Scriptures refer to him at I Thess.4:16 as descending from heaven "with an archangel's voice." I don't understand what the difficulty is with referring to Jesus as the Archangel.
He also descends with the trumpet of God. But that does not make Him God.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those things accompany/announce His return. The trumpet of God, the voice of an archangel. (and Michael is one of the chief princes - Daniel 10:13, which means that there is more than one chief prince. Christ, however, is the Prince OF princes, King OF kings, Lord OF lords.)


**

And just as Christ never taught that He is God (JAH), Christ never taught that He is Michael. Men have taught these things, but not even the apostles taught this (nor did Christ teach this to the apostles, and why would He not have done so if it were true?) Indeed, Miles provided some verses earlier that speak against Christ being an angel, just as there are verses that speak against Christ being God (meaning JAH). Why must men keep adding to what Christ said about who He is? Why not take Him at HIS word? He said that He is the Son of God. He said that He is the Word, the Light, the Truth, the Life, the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness. He never once said that He is an archangel, or that He is Michael, or that He is "YHWH".






Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Of course Jesus never "taught" that he was Michael. Why make an issue out of what his name was before he came to the earth? He wouldn't do that and neither would his disciples. There were many more serious issues to speak about.
You tell me. If it wasn't important then, why is it so important now that some men many centuries later are making an issue out of what they think was His name before He came to earth?
That's just it.....Jehovah's Witnesses aren't making an issue of it. You and other people here are. We know it and take it for granted, so we don't make any issue of it. It's just a fact that each of us knows, just like the fact that the Governing Body is the "faithful and wise Servant" of Matthew 24:45, or the fact that Jesus is God's Son. We only see an issue forming when others object.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #49

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:45 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:48 pm Who were "the angels who sinned"? (2 Peter 2:4) What other place in the Scriptures are angels mentioned as sinning and becoming Satan's followers?
===================================================

In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:
Luke 4:5-7 wrote:And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased.

Previous to this event, Lucifer had desired to become equal unto the most High God:
Isaiah 14:12-14 wrote:. . . I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars (angels) of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Thus Satan and angels under his command sinned by leaving their first estate (the earth) and rebelling against God in heaven. They were repelled and cast back down to their first estate -- the earth:
Revelation 12:9 wrote:And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Although the exact number under Satan's authority is unknown, it was one-third of the total number of the angels of heaven:
Revelation 12:4 wrote:And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth...
"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the book of Revelation.

So 1/3 of the "angels of heaven" were led by Satan into sin by waring against God in heaven:
Revelation 12:7 wrote:And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
This war occurred sometime between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and their rebellion and neglect of their first estate (the earth) resulted in their first estate becoming formless, void, and dark.

So God returned to the earth in Genesis 1:3, recreated the earth, created man lower than the angels, and gave man dominion over the earth.

Man is being groomed to eventually replace these rebellious angels.
You've just got the times mixed up as to when the demons sinned and were cast into spiritual darkness. That happened when they left their proper dwelling place in heaven and came to the earth to have sex with human women.

Genesis 6:1-4
2 Peter 2:4,5
I Peter 3:19,20
Jude 6

Jehovah doesn't need humans to replace angels. He can just create more angels. His purpose was for humans to live on the earth and take care of it forever. (Genesis 1:28; 2:15) His purpose hasn't changed. Adam's descendants will fulfill Jehovah's purpose in the near future.

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Re: Does the Scriptures teach about Jesus' pre-existence?

Post #50

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:50 am You've just got the times mixed up as to when the demons sinned and were cast into spiritual darkness. That happened when they left their proper dwelling place in heaven and came to the earth to have sex with human women.

Genesis 6:1-4
2 Peter 2:4,5
I Peter 3:19,20
Jude 6
That's hilarious! For starters, there is no sex in heaven. The Saducees attempted to trick Jesus by posing a question whereby one woman had multiple husbands which predeceased her. When she became a member of the Kingdom of God which earthly husband would become her husband in the Kingdom of Heaven? Jesus answered:
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12:25)
God created marriage to produce families. The sexual act within marriage procreates the human race. In the Kingdom of God, there are no humans and thus no marriage. There we will all have spiritual bodies like the angels which live forever.

Since we live forever, there is no longer any need to reproduce ourselves.
=========================================================

Anyways, you say the demons left heaven and came to the earth to frolic with the beautiful human women.

Why are demons even in heaven? Being spirits, do they have sexual organs, since there is no reason to reproduce themselves or eliminate wastes? What do these demons perform sex with?
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:50 am Jehovah doesn't need humans to replace angels. He can just create more angels.
And risk being stuck with more everlasting rebels?
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:50 am His purpose was for humans to live on the earth and take care of it forever.
Humans don't live forever. Angels do live forever.

God's original purpose was for angels to live forever caring for the earth. But some of them under the leadership of Satan rebelled.

Man was not in the original plan.
=============================================

You claim that the demons left there proper dwelling place in heaven and came to the earth for sex with the pretty ladies.

If they belonged in heaven, wouldn't they be cast back to heaven where they belong when they were busted?

But the scriptures state that they were cast to the earth:
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth... (Revelation 12:4)
It seems that their first estate was the earth which was ruled over by the devil.

The devil rebelled and left his first estate with his force of angels, they were defeated, and cast back to their work place on the earth.

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