Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

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Wootah
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Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

A New Heaven and a New Earth
Revelation 21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”


More quotes taken from: https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-s ... earth.html

Isaiah 65:17-19 - “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.”

2 Peter 3:13 – “But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”

Revelation 21:1 – “Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.”

Isaiah 66:22 - “‘As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,’ declares the Lord, ‘so will your name and descendants endure.’”


Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #101

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:34 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:22 am
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:53 pm
But biblically?

It's not about the verb "JUDGE.

iT IS about JUDGMENT DAY.

WHAT IT IS AND IS NOT, AND WHEN IT WILL TAKE PLACE AND WILL NOT TAKE PLACE. BIBLICALLY.
Okay so when do you say judgement day[1] takes place in relation to the destruction/rewarding of the sheep and the goals[2] and the judgjng of the kings'that rule with Christ[3]?And where is the HARAGEDDON [4] in this mix


[1] then [2] then [3]? {{ scriptural support please}}

Or

[2] then [1] then [3]? {{ scriptural support please}}


Or

[2] then [3] then [1] ? {{ scriptural support please}}
Yes, you have put forward a mix, and given several possible answers.


Yes well I don't understand the sequencing you propose which is why I am asking you to clarify by putting the numbers in order. I suspect you never will because by remaining deliberately obscure and confusing by presenting a wall of bible texts unexplained - you protect your argument from being refuted.

JW
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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #102

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The correct order is ....

[2] then ===> [4] then ===> [1] / [3]
the judgement of the sheep and the goals[2] then ... HARMAGEDDON [4] then ... judgement day[1] / The judgjng of the kings that rule with Christ[3]

[2] {{ scriptural support please: The judgement if the sheep and the goals is part of the discourse of the last days. ie. The period that marks the end of the present world system of things culminating with Christs return in kingdom power - compare Mat 24:3 with Mat 26:1}}

=>> {{ scriptural support please: The RESURRECTION is not a feature of the events leading up to the destruction of the wicked at the end of the system so the judgement of the millenium rule cannot be in the first chronologocal position - compare Rev 20: 4, 5 }}

[4] {{ scriptural support please: Since the above judgement of the sheep'and the goats is of "all the nations" (see Mat 25:31, 32) then the destruction thereafter must correspond to HARMAGEDDON- see Rev 16: 14, 16 }}


2 TIMOTHY 4:1

I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judgea the living and the dead and by his manifestation and his Kingdom
If after Harmageddon all humans on the earth are either judged as righteous or dead , any future judgements must involve another group (s) of humans
[3] {{ scriptural support please: The 1000 year judgement period at Rev 20:1-5 is the ONLY judgement associated with RESURRECTED HUMANS }}

[1] {{ scriptural support please: If JUDGEMENT DAY is the period when both the living AND THE DEAD are judged then it must correspond to the Millenium described at Rev 20:1-5 , since "the DEAD" are not mentioned during the judgement of the sheep and goats or any other judgement recorded in scripture }}


CONCLUSION : There is solid scriptural support that the Millenium and Judgment day are descriptions of the same period and the correct order is [2] => [4] ==>[3] / [1] ie the judgement of the sheep and the goals[2] = HARMAGEDDON [4] ==> judgement day[1] / The judgjng of the kings'that rule with Christ[3]


FURTHER READING: What Is Judgment Day?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... gment-day/



RELATED POSTS
When does "Judgement day" begin and when does it end?
viewtopic.php?p=1057509#p1057509

How do we know that "Judgement day" and the MILLENIUM refer to the same period?
viewtopic.php?p=1059011#p1059011

In what sense will the rest or the dead come To life (Rev 20)? [Onewithim]
viewtopic.php?p=965585#p965585
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE MILLENIUM , RESURRECTION and ... JUDGEMENT DAY
GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:43 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #103

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:34 pm
What do I say about what fits where or when? Nothing.
Fair enough but saying we are wrong is not "saying nothing". Claiming the Jehovahs Witness explanation is not biblical is not saying nothing. Silence is saying nothing! . You want to say nothing, say nothing!
The above (LINKED HERE) is how biblically we identify what JUDEMENT DAY is, when it will occur, what it will achieve and scripturally speaking, how we know it is the equivalent of the millenium.
viewtopic.php?p=1059011#p1059011
Given your comment above I now expect you to ... say nothing
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #104

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:25 am
onewithhim wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:31 am
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:28 pm
onewithhim post_id=1057781 time=1638289832 user_id=12805]
[Replying to Checkpoint in post #74]
I don't understand why you are disagreeing with JehovahsWitness. Can you explain more clearly? Nothing that JW said conflicts with what you cited.
Look again at these two statements:
Judgement day is the 1000 year period between HARMAGEDDON and the Release of Satan. Its purpose is to bring obedient mankind back to the human perfection God originally purposed in the garden of Eden.

For he has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man He has appointed.
Acts 17:31

What is wrong biblically with the JW statement?

Judgment Day is not the millennium. It is a metaphorical day God has set, or appointed.

Its purpose is God's judgment of mankind and of the devil and those with him.

It will be a judicial process, in which all will give an account of their life to the judge, who will be Jesus. An event, in a courtroom setting.

I'm pretty sure you know all this, and what follows, so I've not said anything new, or anything contrary to, or additional to, what Scripture says.

To achieve its purpose, Judgment Day does not need, and will not last, one year, let alone 1000.

A purpose that has nothing in common with the purpose you and JW wrote about.

Do you understand now?
No. We have written about just what you have posted. We agree. It seems that our only difference here is that you don't consider the Millennium to be Judgment Day, and we do.

You do. Which the Bible never does anywhere.

Until JW wrote of it on this thread, I was in the dark as to this JW
doctrine.

So it astonished me, and I was disappointed.

But it is what it is. And so easy to refute.

There needs to be 1,000 years. Millions and perhaps billions of people will be resurrected into the Millennial Reign, and they will all have to be taught the truth. This will take many years. And then those folks will have to make up their minds what they want to do. At the end they will be given the choice as to whether they want to honor and worship Jehovah or not.
It seems the WTS had a need and decided the millennium was ideal to meet that need.

It reads well, yet something is missing.


cv
How do you refute this doctrine? What is missing?

.

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #105

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #104]
But it is what it is. And so easy to refute.
There needs to be 1,000 years. Millions and perhaps billions of people will be resurrected into the Millennial Reign, and they will all have to be taught the truth. This will take many years. And then those folks will have to make up their minds what they want to do. At the end they will be given the choice as to whether they want to honor and worship Jehovah or not.
It seems the WTS had a need and decided the millennium was ideal to meet that need.

It reads well, yet something is missing.
How do you refute this doctrine? What is missing?
It is refuted by quoting Romans 2:5-11, as follows:

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when His righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 God will repay each person according to what they have done
.

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.
8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
11 For God does not show favoritism.
What is missing is agreement with scripture about Judgment Day.

What you and JW claim is absolutely wrong scripturally.

What Paul states in Romans 2 is absolutely right and is absolute truth.

What is missing in what you and JW have presented on this matter is that absolute truth.

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #106

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:31 pm
What is missing is agreement with scripture about Judgment Day.

What you and JW claim is absolutely wrong scripturally.

What Paul states in Romans 2 is absolutely right and is absolute truth.

What is missing in what you and JW have presented on this matter is that absolute truth.
You give ZERO explanation as to how the above scripture conflict with what Jehovahs Witnesses teach. All you have said here is JWs are wrong and the scripture is right but you have given no reasons as to what conflict with the scripture.

JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #107

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:17 am
Checkpoint wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:31 pm
What is missing is agreement with scripture about Judgment Day.

What you and JW claim is absolutely wrong scripturally.

What Paul states in Romans 2 is absolutely right and is absolute truth.

What is missing in what you and JW have presented on this matter is that absolute truth.
You give ZERO explanation as to how the above scripture conflict with what Jehovahs Witnesses teach. All you have said here is JWs are wrong and the scripture is right but you have given no reasons as to what conflict with the scripture.

JW
What conflicts is your original statement that Judgment Day is the millennium.

Neither of you have given any explanation of that transformation.

The onus is not on me. It is squarely on you.

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #108

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:22 am
Neither of you have given any explanation of that transformation.
The above (LINKED HERE) is how biblically we identify what JUDEMENT DAY is, when it will occur, what it will achieve and scripturally speaking, how we know it is the equivalent of the millenium.
viewtopic.php?p=1059011#p1059011
Checkpoint wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:34 pm
What do I say about what fits where or when? Nothing.


Have you now decided to say something or can we still expect your response to be .... nothing?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #109

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:02 am
Checkpoint wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:22 am ]ds';
Neither of you have given any explanation of that transformation.
The above (LINKED HERE) is how biblically we identify what JUDEMENT DAY is, when it will occur, what it will achieve and scripturally speaking, how we know it is the equivalent of the millenium.
viewtopic.php?p=1059011#p1059011
That explanation ignores what God says in both Testaments about Judgment Day.

Judgment Day will be a unique event. It is not "the equivalent of" anything else, such as the millennium.

Your claim that it is the millennium, or the equivalent of the millennium, is completely wrong scripturally.
Checkpoint wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:34 pm
What do I say about what fits where or when? Nothing.
Have you now decided to say something or can we still expect your response to be .... nothing?
Read my lips.

My aim is to keep the main thing the main thing, in any exchange.

I do this by detecting, and therefore avoiding, any rabbit holes or sidetracks.

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Re: Is there a new heaven and a new earth coming?

Post #110

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:34 pm
What do I say about what fits where or when? Nothing.

If you dont know (or claim to know but choose to provide no evidence that you do) , where and when judgement day is, there is no reason to accept your explanation about what it is?

Thanks anyway,


JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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