A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

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A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread continues from this exchange between Miles and Checkpoint:

Miles wrote:
No more so than the events in the lame promise Jesus made in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Sorry, but the crucial qualifier here is, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." And, of course, the problem here is that the generation did, in fact, pass, and none of the things were fulfilled.
.
Checkpoint wrote:
Quite so, it seems to nearly everyone.

Their problem is their assumption of who Jesus was referring to as comprising "this generation".
Miles wrote:
So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?

I take "this" to mean


this
/T͟His/
pronoun: this; pronoun: these

1. used to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced.
source:Oxford Languages


and "generation" to mean


gen·er·a·tion
/ˌjenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: generation; plural noun: generations

1. all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.
source:Oxford Languages

So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?
Checkpoint wrote:

They apply to the particular people group he often spoke to, or spoke about. Almost always in a negative manner.
Miles wrote:
But as can be seen from the definition I cited in Oxford Languages this isn't what "generation" means at all. It means:

"All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."


Almost always in a negative manner.
Okay.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #51

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]

What Jesus said about the generation he called "this generation"
Luke 7:
31 Jesus went on to say, “To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:

“ ‘We played the pipe for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.’

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’

34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’

35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.

Mark 8:12
And he sighed deeply in his spirit and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly, I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.

Luke 11:

29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.

30 For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation.

31 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here.

32 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here.

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Luke 9:41
You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you and bear with you? Bring your son here.”


Luke 17:25
But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.


Luke 11:
47 Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them.
48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.

49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’

50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #52

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #39]
Dear Checkpoint,
I wanted to reply to your comments about Matthew 24 and specifically about "this generation will not pass".

All of Matthew chapter 24 is teaching on the pathway to salvation. It is an End-time chapter but the "end-time" is not what is commonly taught. The "end-time" is what happens to our old vessel/carnal nature upon the second coming of Christ (Latter Rain of the Spirit). It is the end-time of our old vessel.
Hello, FaithWillDo.

Jesus was specific about what and who he was referring to as "this generation".

He spoke plainly and clearly. It was nothing like what you wrote about.

However, I agree with what you said about spiritual language as a biblical prnciple.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #53

Post by FaithWillDo »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:55 pm [Replying to FaithWillDo in post #39]
Dear Checkpoint,
I wanted to reply to your comments about Matthew 24 and specifically about "this generation will not pass".

All of Matthew chapter 24 is teaching on the pathway to salvation. It is an End-time chapter but the "end-time" is not what is commonly taught. The "end-time" is what happens to our old vessel/carnal nature upon the second coming of Christ (Latter Rain of the Spirit). It is the end-time of our old vessel.
Hello, FaithWillDo.

Jesus was specific about what and who he was referring to as "this generation".

He spoke plainly and clearly. It was nothing like what you wrote about.

However, I agree with what you said about spiritual language as a biblical prnciple.
Yes, Jesus was very clear about the generation - it was the generation of those same people He was speaking with face to face. Everything Jesus said was teaching about the pathway to salvation which is completed at our moment of conversion. That conversion event first happened to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room and was probably no more than a year or two after Jesus spoke in Mat 24.

One thing you might consider is in the Book of Revelation. It too is teaching on the pathway of salvation.

The book clearly says the seals are already open and the time is at hand. But that was nearly 2000 years ago! Can't you see the conflict here with the common teaching on Revelation?

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.


If the time for the book of Revelation is still future, how can anyone, especially those who lived and died over the past 2000 years, ever hope to KEEP THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY?

Was Christ mistaken when He said "I come quickly"? Two thousand years is not quickly.

In Mat 3:2, it says "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". Jesus is the Kingdom of Heaven and His time was at hand (happening now). The same understanding should also be applied to the statement "the time is at hand" in Rev 1:3 and 22:10. "At hand" means it is happening now.

The truth is the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the 1st century A.D. and have continued to be fulfilled over and over again since that time. For Christ's Elect of this age, Christ has already come or is presently coming or will come in the future.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Christ's second coming to His Elect will continue until the last chosen person is saved and this age comes to an end.

The book of Revelation is not teaching about outward coming world events. The book is teaching about spiritual events which happen within us. Those events take us to salvation.

Unless a person "keeps those sayings", salvation will pass them by.

Joe

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #54

Post by Checkpoint »

Checkpoint wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:00 am [Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]

What, in the Bible, is a generation?

Consider the following verses:

Matthew 1:
1 This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers.

17 In all, then, there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.
These verses are simple and plain.

Generations are the basic ingredient of a family tree, or genealogy. A genealogy is a succession of generations.

When the father of a generation dies, his generation ends, and that father's son replaces him as the new father of the new generation.

So?

Has this got anything to do with the identity of the "this generation" Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:34?

Oh yes, plenty!

Jesus reveals its identity. He tells us who it is, what it is, who its father is, and when it began and when it will end.
What else, in the Bible, is a generation?

Consider the following verses:
John 8:
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Matthew 12:34
You brood/offspring/generation of vipers/snakes/serpents, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

John 1:
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born, not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
These verses, too, are simple and plain.

They tell us of two generations, each of which has a spiritual father who does not die as humans do.

The fathers are God the Father and the devil (who first appeared as a serpent). They continue to father their own spiritual generation.

The devil is the father of "this generation" and God is the Father of "a chosen generation"(1 Peter 2:9).

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #55

Post by Checkpoint »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:15 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #26]
When all of the signs have occurred, some of those alive in that generation will live to see the Second Coming.
Jesus never called the generation he often mentioned, "that generation".

He called it what it was then, "this generation".

"this" does not mean "that", and "that does not mean "this".

His "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is the same one that he talked to and about.

He did not talk about two generations that would have an almost 2000 year time gap, with multiple generations in between.

And no, it is not simply a matter of choosing between those two generations; of choosing the "right" one and rejecting the "wrong" one.

No, he instead spoke of one generation; this generation that was existent then and remains existent today, and will do so until he returns.

How can that possibly be? It is what it is. With God all things are possible.

I'm claiming only what Jesus claimed, as recorded in the Gospels. And doing so without making unproven assumptions.
All generations stem from their father, who is the one who generates.

Since all fathers die, each generation has a short time-span, for humans.

How then, will "this generation" last as long as Jesus said it would?

By stemming from a father that is not human or natural, and soon dies, but from a father who is spiritual and super-natural, and therefore does not soon die.

That father is clearly identified in the Gospels.

He is the devil, who showed up on day one as the serpent.

The Gospels are clear and plain. Here are some examples:
Matthew 3:
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood(generation) of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire".

Matthew 12:
33“Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

34 You brood(generation) of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.
37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here.
42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

John 8:
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say?

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #56

Post by tam »

Peace to you both!

I apologize, I have not been following the conversation, but just a quick comment as to the word generation (which you have probably already posted the various meanings of),

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #55]

I have understood Christ as meaning the generation generated by Him and His Father, rather than 'this generation' meaning the wicked generation... BUT YES, I do agree with you that the meaning of generation here is a group of people with the same Father.

One such generation being the wicked generation and their father, the devil.

Another such generation being all those who are in Christ, who have God as their Father. So that it would include Christ's disciples that He was speaking TO, but also to all their brothers and sisters yet to even be born.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #57

Post by tam »

Peace again,

Just in case the usage of 'generation' was not posted somewhere in the thread:

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

I. fathered, birth, nativity

II. that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

. A. the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

. B. metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

. i. esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

III. the whole multitude of men living at the same time

IV. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... /mgnt/0-1/


Peace again to you!
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #58

Post by Checkpoint »

tam wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:58 pm Peace again,

Just in case the usage of 'generation' was not posted somewhere in the thread:

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

I. fathered, birth, nativity

II. that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

. A. the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

. B. metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

. i. esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

III. the whole multitude of men living at the same time

IV. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... /mgnt/0-1/


Peace again to you!
Yes tam, what you post here confirms my position.

What Jesus meant by "this generation" was what is in this reference called "metaphorical". and defined accordingly, as "a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character".

On the other hand "this generation" does not refer to their B.III description at all.

Likewise, he was not referring to the "natural descent" of a literal human family.

Blessings to you.
.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #59

Post by tam »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #58]

I and II work as well since 'this generation' has the same Father.


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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #60

Post by Checkpoint »

tam wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:52 pm Peace to you both!

I apologize, I have not been following the conversation, but just a quick comment as to the word generation (which you have probably already posted the various meanings of),

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #55]

I have understood Christ as meaning the generation generated by Him and His Father, rather than 'this generation' meaning the wicked generation... BUT YES, I do agree with you that the meaning of generation here is a group of people with the same Father.

One such generation being the wicked generation and their father, the devil.

Another such generation being all those who are in Christ, who have God as their Father. So that it would include Christ's disciples that He was speaking TO, but also to all their brothers and sisters yet to even be born.
Wow! Brilliant. I feel like putting this post of yours up in lights!!

Because it is so spot on? Partly. But also because you are the first poster to get what you wrote above.

For me that is major. It encourages me to keep on writing here, doing what I do for my Lord, and for His Word.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
May the Lord always bless and keep you,
make His face to shine upon you,
and give you His peace.

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