A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

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Checkpoint
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A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread continues from this exchange between Miles and Checkpoint:

Miles wrote:
No more so than the events in the lame promise Jesus made in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Sorry, but the crucial qualifier here is, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." And, of course, the problem here is that the generation did, in fact, pass, and none of the things were fulfilled.
.
Checkpoint wrote:
Quite so, it seems to nearly everyone.

Their problem is their assumption of who Jesus was referring to as comprising "this generation".
Miles wrote:
So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?

I take "this" to mean


this
/T͟His/
pronoun: this; pronoun: these

1. used to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced.
source:Oxford Languages


and "generation" to mean


gen·er·a·tion
/ˌjenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: generation; plural noun: generations

1. all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.
source:Oxford Languages

So, what do you think "this" and "generation" apply to?
Checkpoint wrote:

They apply to the particular people group he often spoke to, or spoke about. Almost always in a negative manner.
Miles wrote:
But as can be seen from the definition I cited in Oxford Languages this isn't what "generation" means at all. It means:

"All of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."


Almost always in a negative manner.
Okay.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #21

Post by myth-one.com »

Checkpoint wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:42 pm
How do any of us know what they knew then.


By reading the scriptures!



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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #22

Post by Eloi »

The words of Jesus were:

Matt. 24:34 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.

What are "all these things" that he mentions? Precisely the ones he mentioned before: the end-time prophecies. Although his words refer in part to the end of the Jewish system, which ceased to exist as such when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 C.E. , Jesus' words imply an end to the whole world system of things, and refer to the time when that end would come in a future far from his own day. Thus the phrase "this generation" has two respective meanings.

When we know that the prophecies about the great tribulation of which he spoke just before are in full fulfillment, then everyone without exception will perceive with certainty what the global meaning of that expression ( this generation ) is.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #23

Post by myth-one.com »

Miles wrote:No more so than the events in the lame promise Jesus made in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Sorry, but the crucial qualifier here is, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." And, of course, the problem here is that the generation did, in fact, pass, and none of the things were fulfilled.
Since the generation He is speaking to passed without all the things happening proves that He was not addressing the generation which would not pass until the end of times occurred.

One thing which must occur is that the apostles would be killed before the end of times:
Matthew 24:9 wrote:Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
So one sign that the end is near is that those present listening to Jesus are prophesied to be killed before the end of times can occur.

They cannot live to see the Second Coming and end of time if one thing which must occur before the end of time is their death.

So Jesus is not referring to the present generation to which He is speaking!


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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #24

Post by Miles »

myth-one.com wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:20 pm
Miles wrote:No more so than the events in the lame promise Jesus made in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Sorry, but the crucial qualifier here is, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." And, of course, the problem here is that the generation did, in fact, pass, and none of the things were fulfilled.
Since the generation He is speaking to passed without all the things happening proves that He was not addressing the generation which would not pass until the end of times occurred.
Then what do you do with post #4 here, where I posted the following:


Matthew 24: 1-/-/->34
1Jesus departed from the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the buildings of the temple and point them out to Him.

2 But He answered them [the disciples he was speaking to], Do you [the disciples he was speaking to] see all these? Truly I tell you [the disciples he was speaking to], there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?

4 Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [the disciples he was speaking to] [deceiving you and leading you into error].

5 For many will come in (on the strength of) My name, saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.

6 And you [the disciples he was speaking to] will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you [the disciples he was speaking to] are not frightened or troubled, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in place after place;

8 All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].

9 Then [after the famines and earthquakes in place after place, and the intolerable anguish] they will hand you [the disciples he was speaking to] over to suffer affliction and tribulation and put you to death, and you [the disciples he was speaking to] will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
.
.
15 So when you [the disciples he was speaking to] see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place—let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]
.
.
33 So also when you [the disciples he was speaking to] see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you [the disciples he was speaking to] may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
.
[Obviously all this death and destruction was suppose to take place during the lives of the disciples, which puts the generation spoken of as theirs: "THIS generation."]
.
34 Truly I tell you [the disciples he was speaking to] , this generation [the whole multitude of people then living at the same time] will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.



(bolded verse numbers, XX, are those verse in which the disciples were suppose to experience some aspect of the "the end,")


So the promise was lame (mistaken) because the generation did, in fact, pass and "all these things" were not fulfilled.


But I know what you do with it. You ignore what is said (leave it out when cherry picking) so as to make the Bible conform to your theology.

.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #25

Post by Checkpoint »

myth-one.com wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:03 am
Checkpoint wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:42 pm
How do any of us know what they knew then.


By reading the scriptures!



Yes, but without assumptions that they in no way confirm..

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #26

Post by myth-one.com »

Miles wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:02 pm Sorry, but the crucial qualifier here is, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." And, of course, the problem here is that the generation did, in fact, pass, and none of the things were fulfilled.
It is incorrect that none of those things happened within that generation:
Matthew 24:9 wrote:Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
If the generation passed, then all of the disciples were dead. That was fulfilled.

Why is it a problem that the generation passed without all of those things being fulfilled?

Since the generation He is speaking to passed without all the things happening proves that He was not addressing the generation which would not pass until the end of times occurred.

Then what do you do with post #4 here, where I posted the following:

You conclusion was:
Miles wrote:So the promise was lame (mistaken) because the generation did, in fact, pass and "all these things" were not fulfilled.
Their generation is what passed. But their generation is not the generation which will see all of those signs!

Another sign is that the gospel will be preached to all nations. That still has not occurred?

When all of the signs have occurred, some of those alive in that generation will live to see the Second Coming.

The generation living during the time of Jesus had not even seen the crucifixion.


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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #27

Post by myth-one.com »

Checkpoint wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:31 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:03 am
Checkpoint wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:42 pm
How do any of us know what they knew then.


By reading the scriptures!



Yes, but without assumptions that they in no way confirm..

Exactly!

By reading the scriptures without assumptions that they in no way confirm!

Thanks


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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #28

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]

What, in the Bible, is a generation?

Consider the following verses:

Matthew 1:
1 This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers.

17 In all, then, there were fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.
These verses are simple and plain.

Generations are the basic ingredient of a family tree, or genealogy. A genealogy is a succession of generations.

When the father of a generation dies, his generation ends, and that father's son replaces him as the new father of the new generation.

So?

Has this got anything to do with the identity of the "this generation Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:34"?

Oh yes, plenty!

Jesus reveals its identity. He tells us who it is, what it is, who its father is, and when it began and when it will end.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #29

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #26]
When all of the signs have occurred, some of those alive in that generation will live to see the Second Coming.

Jesus never called the generation he often mentioned, "that generation".

He called it what it was then, "this generation".

"this" does not mean "that", and "that does not mean "this".

His "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is the same one that he talked to and about.

He did not talk about two generations that would have an almost 2000 year time gap, with multiple generations in between.

And no, it is not simply a matter of choosing between those two generations; of choosing the "right" one and rejecting the "wrong" one.

No, he instead spoke of one generation; this generation that was existent then and remains existent today, and will do so until he returns.

How can that possibly be? It is what it is. With God all things are possible.

I'm claiming only what Jesus claimed, as recorded in the Gospels. And doing so without making unproven assumptions.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A lame promise? "This generation shall not pass until...". Matthew 24:34

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:15 pm
His "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 is the same one that he talked to and about.
SHOULD WE CONCLUDE EVERY REFERENCE JESUS MADE TO "THIS GENERATION" MUST REFER TO THOSE ALIVE DURING JESUS MINISTRY?

A fundemental error novices to biblical understanding take is to come to a conclusion about a text based on common use irrespective of context. While Jesus did make frequent negative assessments of those that witnessed his ministry but refused to believe in his messiahship, the context of Matthew 24 is clearly using the pronoun ("this") to indicate a generation that witnesses a set of events previously mentioned.




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