Does Christ speak and how?

[tam]

May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." (Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #320]

The RCC = a religion.
The WTS (or whatever JW's are calling their religion) = a religion.
The LDS = a religion.
Christianity (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion
Judaism (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion

In the same post, you also use as something of a defense for your position of religions not being of YHVH - quotes from a set of books composed by and sold through those religions.

This contradiction requires explanation from you Tam.

There is no contradiction, William.

You are making assumptions about who composed the books that make up the bible.

Okay...

Religions might use those books, but they were composed by PEOPLE.

Were the people who composed the books, not religious? Is that what you are telling the reader Tam?

The various letters and testimonies included in the NT already existed. John (of Patmos) composed one of them (this one - Revelation - is inspired); Paul composed multiple letters, the disciple Christ loved (an apostle and an eyewitness) composed (at least) one book ("John"); the author of Luke composed at least two books (Luke and Acts), James wrote, Jude wrote, Peter wrote, etc.

Are you aware Tam that it is Christian Tradition [religion] which tells the world who wrote what?

How are we to know that the stories were not made up by the Christian religion? Especially since - by your own whiteness against said religions - these are untrustworthy?

We do not have all the letters that people composed (we do not even have all of Paul's letters that were referenced IN the NT).

We do not even have all the accounts of the things Christ said and did. The Religion you claim is untrustworthy is the same institution which decided on what went into and what stayed out of "The [Holy] Bible"

Q: What makes you think that what we do have constitutes enough for us to thereby be able to discern truthfulness and participate within truth?

Q: How is it that this "Voice of Christ" you claim to listen to, is bound by a religious icon [The Bible] to the point where, IF the voice you hear were to tell you something which might contradict the sayings within the religious icon, THEN you would consider said voice to be lying, and therefore 'not the Voice of Christ'?

Christ is not bound by any religious icon; nor even the bible.

Perhaps not, but the voice you claim to hear and claim is Christ, is bound by the bible script you use as a means of somehow verifying the truth of your claim.

If it were the other way around, it might make better sense, but to use a religious icon to attempt to support your claim, contradicts your claim that religion is not listening to the voice you are listening to.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #318]

I would still like to view a sample of the type of narrative you have with the voice you claim to be Christ, Tam.

If you would be so kind as to organize it in the fashion of following example:

Tam: What do you think of William's argument, Dear Lord?

The Voice of Christ: William has a point which needs to be addressed by us, Dear Tammy.

Why do you want that, William?

It is necessary to the procedure of testing the spirit of your claim Tam.

An example of the internal conversation you claim to have with the voice will give the reader something to examine/work with.

Simply quoting bible verses doesn't show the reader that you have this connection with what you claim is "The Voice of Christ".
All that shows the reader is you are no different from any other bible quoting Christian, and since you do claim to be different - the request for examples is not unreasonable.

It it a problem for you Tam? Is there some reason why you would not want the reader having such examples?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #320]

The RCC = a religion.
The WTS (or whatever JW's are calling their religion) = a religion.
The LDS = a religion.
Christianity (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion
Judaism (all the denominations and sects within it) = a religion

In the same post, you also use as something of a defense for your position of religions not being of YHVH - quotes from a set of books composed by and sold through those religions.

This contradiction requires explanation from you Tam.

There is no contradiction, William.

You are making assumptions about who composed the books that make up the bible.

Okay...

Religions might use those books, but they were composed by PEOPLE.

Were the people who composed the books, not religious? Is that what you are telling the reader Tam?

They were not a part of religion (or they were coming out of one perhaps).

Paul had just come out of one religion (Judaism - at that time), though he carried some baggage from it at the start (as most of us do). But he learned, and he learned from Christ (the person; not a religion).

Some were cast out of the synagogues because of their acceptance and faith in Christ.

Christ Himself said that the kind of worshipers His Father desired were those who worshiped in spirit and in truth.

The various letters and testimonies included in the NT already existed. John (of Patmos) composed one of them (this one - Revelation - is inspired); Paul composed multiple letters, the disciple Christ loved (an apostle and an eyewitness) composed (at least) one book ("John"); the author of Luke composed at least two books (Luke and Acts), James wrote, Jude wrote, Peter wrote, etc.

Are you aware Tam that it is Christian Tradition [religion] which tells the world who wrote what?

John (of Patmos) identifies himself in Revelation. The disciple Christ loved (who is not the apostle John according to tradition, but is rather Lazarus, as my Lord has confirmed to me) identifies himself (as the disciple Christ loved) in the book of "John".

James identifies himself, Jude identifies himself, Peter identifies himself, Paul identifies himself.

Were you aware of those things, William?

Matthew and Mark do not identify themselves by name (but whoever wrote the books were people, not a religion); and Luke does not identify himself as Luke (but whoever wrote Luke wrote also Acts, and this was a person - not a religion).

How are we to know that the stories were not made up by the Christian religion? Especially since - by your own whiteness against said religions - these are untrustworthy?

For what reason should we suspect - much less accept - that a religion decided to up and write a collection of books one day, and call it the NT?

We do not have all the letters that people composed (we do not even have all of Paul's letters that were referenced IN the NT).

We do not even have all the accounts of the things Christ said and did. The Religion you claim is untrustworthy is the same institution which decided on what went into and what stayed out of "The [Holy] Bible"

But that does not change the content in the letters nor does it change the fact that these letters were written by people (including at least one eyewitness to Christ), and not by a religion.

Q: What makes you think that what we do have constitutes enough for us to thereby be able to discern truthfulness and participate within truth?

I cannot answer a question about why I think something... when I never said I think that to begin with.

Q: How is it that this "Voice of Christ" you claim to listen to, is bound by a religious icon [The Bible] to the point where, IF the voice you hear were to tell you something which might contradict the sayings within the religious icon, THEN you would consider said voice to be lying, and therefore 'not the Voice of Christ'?

Christ is not bound by any religious icon; nor even the bible.

Perhaps not, but the voice you claim to hear and claim is Christ, is bound by the bible script you use as a means of somehow verifying the truth of your claim.

Again, nope.

Just because I used something from that book to help Clownboat see, does not mean I am suggesting that Christ is bound by that book.

If it were the other way around, it might make better sense, but to use a religious icon to attempt to support your claim, contradicts your claim that religion is not listening to the voice you are listening to.

See all the above.


Peace again.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #318]

I would still like to view a sample of the type of narrative you have with the voice you claim to be Christ, Tam.

If you would be so kind as to organize it in the fashion of following example:

Tam: What do you think of William's argument, Dear Lord?

The Voice of Christ: William has a point which needs to be addressed by us, Dear Tammy.

Why do you want that, William?

It is necessary to the procedure of testing the spirit of your claim Tam.

An example of the internal conversation you claim to have with the voice will give the reader something to examine/work with.

Are you referring to the content? The message? Something my Lord said to me? Because I have already shared things that I have received from my Lord - not to put my Lord on but as has been appropriate in the specific situation. Such as (in the case between Clownboat and myself): to address the false accusation that my Lord does not teach me to love myself or to love my neighbor.

Simply quoting bible verses doesn't show the reader that you have this connection with what you claim is "The Voice of Christ".

No one ever said it did.

All that shows the reader is you are no different from any other bible quoting Christian, and since you do claim to be different - the request for examples is not unreasonable.

You were given what you keep asking for.

(and you also quote from the bible William... so I guess that must make you the same as any other bible-quoting Christian, right?)

It it a problem for you Tam? Is there some reason why you would not want the reader having such examples?

Kind of a moot question considering I have shared these things already.



Peace again to you.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #323]

Religions might use those books, but they were composed by PEOPLE.

Were the people who composed the books, not religious? Is that what you are telling the reader Tam?

They were not a part of religion (or they were coming out of one perhaps).

Not 'perhaps' Tam. Most likely.

Paul had just come out of one religion (Judaism - at that time), though he carried some baggage from it at the start (as most of us do). But he learned, and he learned from Christ (the person; not a religion).

That was the claim of the character called Paul in the story presented Tam.
In that it is similar to your own claim.

The reader cannot question the character was called "Paul" in the story Tam.
However, your claims can be questioned - you can be questioned. In that way, the reader can better determine whether what you claim is truth or not.

Some were cast out of the synagogues because of their acceptance and faith in Christ.

Understandable since the new religion these folk created, thought about Jews in the same way you think about Christians - and in being cast out, they formed their own religions...

Christ Himself said that the kind of worshipers His Father desired were those who worshiped in spirit and in truth.

Yes - that is recorded in the religious book Tam.

You appear to be claiming that you know what this means as it related to the voice you claim to hear in your mind, as being Christs voice.

It is that claim to which the spirit is being tested.

Are you aware Tam that it is Christian Tradition [religion] which tells the world who wrote what?

John (of Patmos) identifies himself in Revelation. The disciple Christ loved (who is not the apostle John according to tradition, but is rather Lazarus, as my Lord has confirmed to me) identifies himself (as the disciple Christ loved) in the book of "John".

What you are claiming here is that the voice you claim is Christ, TOLD you this was the case, and even confirmed it for you.
What is missing for the reader therein Tam, is any supporting evidence to show that the claim is trustworthy.

James identifies himself, Jude identifies himself, Peter identifies himself, Paul identifies himself.

Were you aware of those things, William?

It doesn't matter how the character is portrayed Tam.

I portray a character as "Manu Iti" in my Campfire Stories. Does that mean that when Manu Iti, identifies as Manu Iti in the stories, that it is Manu Iti who is identifying himself?

We do not know if the stories are real events written by actual personalities who actually existed and actually experienced what they tell us they experienced, or fiction that religion made up.
The spirit of your claim that the voice you hear which refers to himself as "Christ" still requires being tested to ascertain whether it is true or false.

Matthew and Mark do not identify themselves by name (but whoever wrote the books were people, not a religion); and Luke does not identify himself as Luke (but whoever wrote Luke wrote also Acts, and this was a person - not a religion).

Just to be clear Tam - people write books. People create religion. There is no disagreement therein and it is not the focus of my investigation. Your claim that you hear a voice and you claim that the voice told you he was Christ, in the focus of my investigation.

How are we to know that the stories were not made up by the Christian religion? Especially since - by your own whiteness against said religions - these are untrustworthy?

For what reason should we suspect - much less accept - that a religion decided to up and write a collection of books one day, and call it the NT?

None, because the whole process took a few centuries, which only adds to the likelihood that these stories were well thought out over time, with the intention of creating a powerful religion - and the evidence points to that being what actually happened and that it could not have happened without those stories being created.

We do not even have all the accounts of the things Christ said and did. The Religion you claim is untrustworthy is the same institution which decided on what went into and what stayed out of "The [Holy] Bible"

But that does not change the content in the letters nor does it change the fact that these letters were written by people (including at least one eyewitness to Christ), and not by a religion.

Yes it does Tam, because it should naturally place suspicion on the organization which decided what to have written in and what to leave out.

Q: Do you think that if you had no knowledge of the Bible, that you would not be now hearing a voice which claims to be Christ?

Q: What makes you think that what we do have constitutes enough for us to thereby be able to discern truthfulness and participate within truth?

I cannot answer a question about why I think something... when I never said I think that to begin with.

Q: Then, are you saying that what we do have constitutes enough for us to thereby be able to discern truthfulness and participate within truth?

Christ is not bound by any religious icon; nor even the bible.

Perhaps not, but the voice you claim to hear and claim is Christ, is bound by the bible script you use as a means of somehow verifying the truth of your claim.

Again, nope.

Just because I used something from that book to help Clownboat see, does not mean I am suggesting that Christ is bound by that book.

What makes you think that quoting a religious holy book will help anyone 'see' that you speak the truth when you claim to hear the voice of Christ?

Q: Why should we accept that the voice telling you it is the voice of Christ, is being truthful?

My concern is not that you are being untruthful about hearing the voice Tam, but in having supporting evidence from you that this voice is being truthful.
Obviously you believe that the voice is being truthful.
But how are we to know this, unless we test it?

An example of the internal conversation you claim to have with the voice will give the reader something to examine/work with.

Are you referring to the content? The message? Something my Lord said to me?

No. I am wanting you to share what occurs in your mind re the voice as conversation verbatim - as it happens - word for word as if you were a court stenographer recording the words spoken in a court of law.

Because I have already shared things that I have received from my Lord - not to put my Lord on but as has been appropriate in the specific situation.

I am not asking you to share "things" you have received [whatever you mean by that] .

Such as (in the case between Clownboat and myself): to address the false accusation that my Lord does not teach me to love myself or to love my neighbor.

What I am requesting from you is word for word narration on what goes on in your mind between you and the voice claiming to be Christ to you. A voice you have obviously chosen to believe IS the voice of Christ.

For example - did it go something like this [re Clownboat]

The Voice: Clownboat made a false accusation about what I teach you.

Tam: Yes. What shall I tell him about that?

The Voice: Explain to him why his accusation is false. Make sure you use the Bible to support your explanation.

All that shows the reader is you are no different from any other bible quoting Christian, and since you do claim to be different - the request for examples is not unreasonable.

You were given what you keep asking for.

No. You have given no such thing Tam.
I keep asking for an example of the type of conversation - verbatim - that goes on in your mind between the voice claiming to be Christ and your self Tam.
I have explained why I think this is a necessary and reasonable request asked of you re testing the spirit of your claim.

(and you also quote from the bible William... so I guess that must make you the same as any other bible-quoting Christian, right?)

Deflection attempt noted Tam.
The difference is that I am not claiming to hear a voice in my mind, itself claiming to be Christ Tam.
Nor am I claiming to be a Christian.

It it a problem for you Tam? Is there some reason why you would not want the reader having such examples?

Kind of a moot question considering I have shared these things already.

Incorrect.

You have never - to my knowledge - shared verbatim [word for word] anything of the sort being requested of you now.

You are free to continue not to, of course, but that will not bode well with supporting your claim and will leave the reader with the impression that the spirit of your claim is untrustworthy.

If Christ is to be trusted, those who claim to be "in Christ" have to be able to show this is the case.

If they cannot, or will not, then their claim(s) need not be accepted as trustworthy.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #323]

Religions might use those books, but they were composed by PEOPLE.

Were the people who composed the books, not religious? Is that what you are telling the reader Tam?

They were not a part of religion (or they were coming out of one perhaps).

Not 'perhaps' Tam. Most likely.

Then there you go. The writers were NOT part of religion.

Religion did not write the NT.

Some were cast out of the synagogues because of their acceptance and faith in Christ.

Understandable since the new religion these folk created,

Please provide evidence that the people cast out of the synagogues created a new religion.

Christ Himself said that the kind of worshipers His Father desired were those who worshiped in spirit and in truth.

Yes - that is recorded in the religious book Tam.

It was in response to the Samaritan woman stating that Jews claimed people must worship in Jerusalem (in the Temple), where Samaritans believed they must worship on a certain hill/mountain.

Kind of the way religions claim you must worship within the RCC or the WTS or whatever other religion (or mountain) one is in.

Are you aware Tam that it is Christian Tradition [religion] which tells the world who wrote what?

John (of Patmos) identifies himself in Revelation. The disciple Christ loved (who is not the apostle John according to tradition, but is rather Lazarus, as my Lord has confirmed to me) identifies himself (as the disciple Christ loved) in the book of "John".

What you are claiming here

What I am doing here is showing that your claim was incorrect (as to most of the NT). I also demonstrated that I do not care what tradition teaches, since I do not accept things as being true just because religion or tradition states them.

is that the voice you claim is Christ, TOLD you this was the case, and even confirmed it for you.

Someone else claimed that Lazarus was the disciple Christ loved. Their support for this claim made sense; I accepted and shared it myself after my Lord showed me where Lazarus is indeed identified as the disciple Christ loved.

What is missing for the reader therein Tam, is any supporting evidence to show that the claim is trustworthy.

For that we would have to get into a discussion about Lazarus being the disciple Christ loved. That has been discussed a few times on this forum. That is what 'test the inspired expression' means. Test the expression; the message; the content.

James identifies himself, Jude identifies himself, Peter identifies himself, Paul identifies himself.

Were you aware of those things, William?

It doesn't matter how the character is portrayed Tam.

I portray a character as "Manu Iti" in my Campfire Stories. Does that mean that when Manu Iti, identifies as Manu Iti in the stories, that it is Manu Iti who is identifying himself?

Perhaps you are suspicious because you are the one making things up and you are projecting that?

I asked you below if there is any reason that we have to suspect religion made this accounts up, and you replied, 'none'.

Matthew and Mark do not identify themselves by name (but whoever wrote the books were people, not a religion); and Luke does not identify himself as Luke (but whoever wrote Luke wrote also Acts, and this was a person - not a religion).

Just to be clear Tam - people write books. People create religion. There is no disagreement therein and it is not the focus of my investigation. Your claim that you hear a voice and you claim that the voice told you he was Christ, in the focus of my investigation.

It seems to me that you are attempting to prove wrong my witness that Christ speaks and His sheep do hear His voice - or at least prove that I am not one of those sheep - by claiming that the NT from which I have quoted is a fictional account created by a religion. Because then you can say that I should know not to quote from it. Right? But you have presented nothing to support your claim here - even admitting that there is no reason for us to suspect such a thing. And even you quote from that book when you want to use something in it to support a claim of your own.

All you seem to have here is a completely unsupported conspiracy theory, and one it seems that even you do not accept (since you quote from that book, yourself).

How are we to know that the stories were not made up by the Christian religion? Especially since - by your own whiteness against said religions - these are untrustworthy?

For what reason should we suspect - much less accept - that a religion decided to up and write a collection of books one day, and call it the NT?

None, because the whole process took a few centuries, which only adds to the likelihood that these stories were well thought out over time, with the intention of creating a powerful religion - and the evidence points to that being what actually happened and that it could not have happened without those stories being created.

So... a) there is no reason for us to suspect much less accept this; but also b) the evidence points to this as being what happened.

I think you have a contradiction of your own to explain. While you are at that, by all means, present that evidence.

Q: Do you think that if you had no knowledge of the Bible, that you would not be now hearing a voice which claims to be Christ?

If I had no knowledge of the bible, I would still be hearing His voice. Would I know it was Him? I suspect I would at some point - because I would then be one of His sheep (His sheep listen to His voice) and somehow He would have led me to that truth.

Christ is not bound by any religious icon; nor even the bible.

Perhaps not, but the voice you claim to hear and claim is Christ, is bound by the bible script you use as a means of somehow verifying the truth of your claim.

Again, nope.

Just because I used something from that book to help Clownboat see, does not mean I am suggesting that Christ is bound by that book.

What makes you think that quoting a religious holy book will help anyone 'see' that you speak the truth when you claim to hear the voice of Christ?

I do not think that.

I used it to help Clownboat see what Christ is written to have said, because he mentioned something about not having value.

Q: Why should we accept that the voice telling you it is the voice of Christ, is being truthful?

My concern is not that you are being untruthful about hearing the voice Tam, but in having supporting evidence from you that this voice is being truthful.

Well then you do not need a verbatim back-and-forth, William; you just need HIS words; and I have shared such.

An example of the internal conversation you claim to have with the voice will give the reader something to examine/work with.

Are you referring to the content? The message? Something my Lord said to me?

No. I am wanting you to share what occurs in your mind re the voice as conversation verbatim - as it happens - word for word as if you were a court stenographer recording the words spoken in a court of law.

I did give His words (Is that what love would do). If you also want my response (though why that should matter is beyond me), I cannot recall if I stated it word for word 'no that is not what love does', or simply, 'no'... or if I simply proceeded to do what love does.

Because I have already shared things that I have received from my Lord - not to put my Lord on but as has been appropriate in the specific situation.

I am not asking you to share "things" you have received [whatever you mean by that] .

Such as (in the case between Clownboat and myself): to address the false accusation that my Lord does not teach me to love myself or to love my neighbor.

What I am requesting from you is word for word narration on what goes on in your mind between you and the voice claiming to be Christ to you. A voice you have obviously chosen to believe IS the voice of Christ.

For example - did it go something like this [re Clownboat]

No. I shared a past occurrence and what my Lord had said to me then (about what love would do). That occurrence and His words disproved Clownboat's concerns/accusations.

(and you also quote from the bible William... so I guess that must make you the same as any other bible-quoting Christian, right?)

Deflection attempt noted Tam.
The difference is that I am not claiming to hear a voice in my mind, itself claiming to be Christ Tam.
Nor am I claiming to be a Christian.

That was not a deflection. It does reveal that you are being inconsistent though, and perhaps even hypocritical.

It it a problem for you Tam? Is there some reason why you would not want the reader having such examples?

Kind of a moot question considering I have shared these things already.

Incorrect

You have never - to my knowledge - shared verbatim [word for word] anything of the sort being requested of you now.

This is shared in the very OP on this thread. This is shared on the thread that prompted this current exchange (regarding what love would do). This has been shared with regard to what my Lord asked me when I was a child. This has been shared on this forum with regard to what my Lord asked me when I was searching for the 'one true religion' (back when I mistakenly thought there was such a thing). You and I even had a direct (well via the internet) conversation about me using the name Christian. I shared His words to me on that matter with you, verbatim. Not to put my Lord on display. But to share with you (and the reader) information that was appropriate to the discussion we were having (re: the word/title/description of Christian).



Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #326]

They were not a part of religion (or they were coming out of one perhaps).

Not 'perhaps' Tam. Most likely.

Then there you go. The writers were NOT part of religion.

Religion did not write the NT.

Religious folk did write the NT.

Some were cast out of the synagogues because of their acceptance and faith in Christ.

Understandable since the new religion these folk created,

Please provide evidence that the people cast out of the synagogues created a new religion.

They wrote about it. What they wrote about, became the source material for a new religion.

Christ Himself said that the kind of worshipers His Father desired were those who worshiped in spirit and in truth.

Yes - that is recorded in the religious book Tam.

It was in response to the Samaritan woman stating that Jews claimed people must worship in Jerusalem (in the Temple), where Samaritans believed they must worship on a certain hill/mountain.

Kind of the way religions claim you must worship within the RCC or the WTS or whatever other religion (or mountain) one is in.

Also, kinda the way religious folk claim they must hear a voice in their mind telling them that it is Christ and you should follow it Tam.
Q: What does the voice say to you regarding the kind of worship YHVH 'desires'?

What you are claiming here is that the voice you claim is Christ, TOLD you this was the case, and even confirmed it for you.
What is missing for the reader therein Tam, is any supporting evidence to show that the claim is trustworthy.

Someone else claimed that Lazarus was the disciple Christ loved. Their support for this claim made sense; I accepted and shared it myself after my Lord showed me where Lazarus is indeed identified as the disciple Christ loved.

I am not talking about "Lazarus was the disciple Christ loved" Tam. I am still talking about your claim re hearing a voice calling itself Christ and you following after that voice. Please remain on tangent.

James identifies himself, Jude identifies himself, Peter identifies himself, Paul identifies himself.

Were you aware of those things, William?

It doesn't matter how the character is portrayed Tam.

I portray a character as "Manu Iti" in my Campfire Stories. Does that mean that when Manu Iti, identifies as Manu Iti in the stories, that it is Manu Iti who is identifying himself?

Perhaps you are suspicious because you are the one making things up and you are projecting that?

Unlikely, as I am using the example to show how fiction is created. I am testing the spirit of your claim and reminding the reader that your bringing up characters which are possibly fictitious to somehow support your claim, is under question.

I have no reason to believe the stories in the bible are fiction or fact or a mix of both. I am still examining the evidence re that.

I asked you below if there is any reason that we have to suspect religion made this accounts up, and you replied, 'none'.

I do not understand what you mean by 'below' but my answer supports that I am not projecting, as I pointed out above.

However, I do think there are reasons to be suspicious and thus test the spirit of any claim, be they biblical ones or the claim you make re the voice you hear.

All you seem to have here is a completely unsupported conspiracy theory, and one it seems that even you do not accept (since you quote from that book, yourself).

My critique on anything biblical you present as evidence that the voice you say you hear and you say claims to be Christ Tam, is not my being a conspirator.

Q: Do you think that if you had no knowledge of the Bible, that you would not be now hearing a voice which claims to be Christ?

If I had no knowledge of the bible, I would still be hearing His voice. Would I know it was Him? I suspect I would at some point - because I would then be one of His sheep (His sheep listen to His voice) and somehow He would have led me to that truth.

Good - then we needn't be distracted by your trying to use the bible to support you claim about the voice which claims to be Christ.

We can focus, as we should - on the actual voice and what the voice tells you.

Q: Why should we accept that the voice telling you it is the voice of Christ, is being truthful?

My concern is not that you are being untruthful about hearing the voice Tam, but in having supporting evidence from you that this voice is being truthful.

Well then you do not need a verbatim back-and-forth, William; you just need HIS words; and I have shared such.

Yes Tam. As explained to you already, in order to test the spirit re this claim, we require actual verbatim back and forth examples, so that we can ascertain what is actually being said to you - what you actually hear.
Otherwise your claim is empty and a pointless one to even be making publicly.

Share the back and forth verbatim Tam. Show us the truth of your claim that we might examine it for the claimed truth.

Deflection attempt noted Tam.
The difference is that I am not claiming to hear a voice in my mind, itself claiming to be Christ Tam.
Nor am I claiming to be a Christian.

That was not a deflection. It does reveal that you are being inconsistent though, and perhaps even hypocritical.

Making personal statements of inference about me is also a type of deflection Tam.

What I am asking from you is not unreasonable or beyond your obvious abilities to do.

You have never - to my knowledge - shared verbatim [word for word] anything of the sort being requested of you now.

This is shared in the very OP on this thread. This is shared on the thread that prompted this current exchange (regarding what love would do). This has been shared with regard to what my Lord asked me when I was a child. This has been shared on this forum with regard to what my Lord asked me when I was searching for the 'one true religion' (back when I mistakenly thought there was such a thing). You and I even had a direct (well via the internet) conversation about me using the name Christian. I shared His words to me on that matter with you, verbatim. Not to put my Lord on display. But to share with you (and the reader) information that was appropriate to the discussion we were having (re: the word/title/description of Christian).

Those are just notes about some things that happened to you Tam. It is the details which are missing.

It is the process folk are interested in - the narration that goes on in your mind between your voice and the voice claiming to be Christ.
No one is asking you to 'put your Lord on display" [whatever that means] but to simply share in greater detail what goes on in your mind re this phenomena, that we may better understand it and therefore, better understand the nature of your claim.

If that is something 'too personal" for you to share Tam, then what else can we surmise but that whatever the voice is you hear claiming to be Christ, as far as claims go - being unsupported, the best we could agree with you is that it is your statement of opinion that the voice is Christ because you want to believe that voice is telling you the truth.

No one doubts that you are hearing a voice. The doubt is that the voice you are hearing is who it says it is.

So, despite your belief that you are in a better position than other Christians you consider do not hear/will not listen to a voice as you do, the reality is you are no different from any other Christian and in no better position for hearing a voice calling itself Christ.

[tam]

William (peace to you), you are asking for things that have already been given to you. If you refuse to believe something you can see with your very own eyes (by which I mean the verbatim words you have been given, even an exchange) how will you believe something spiritual?

[Replying to tam in post #326]

They were not a part of religion (or they were coming out of one perhaps).

Not 'perhaps' Tam. Most likely.

Then there you go. The writers were NOT part of religion.

Religion did not write the NT.

Religious folk did write the NT.

If they were not part of religion or they were coming OUT of religion, then they were not IN a religion.

Some were cast out of the synagogues because of their acceptance and faith in Christ.

Understandable since the new religion these folk created,

Please provide evidence that the people cast out of the synagogues created a new religion.

They wrote about it. What they wrote about, became the source material for a new religion.

Are you claiming they wrote about a new religion? Or are you claiming the things they wrote about became something a later religion used as a source?

Which is it? If the first, please provide examples of them writing about a new religion (you know, an institutionalized, organized religion).

Christ Himself said that the kind of worshipers His Father desired were those who worshiped in spirit and in truth.

Yes - that is recorded in the religious book Tam.

It was in response to the Samaritan woman stating that Jews claimed people must worship in Jerusalem (in the Temple), where Samaritans believed they must worship on a certain hill/mountain.

Kind of the way religions claim you must worship within the RCC or the WTS or whatever other religion (or mountain) one is in.

Also, kinda the way religious folk claim they must hear a voice in their mind telling them that it is Christ and you should follow it Tam.

Not like that at all. Christ is the Spirit (and also the Truth). No one comes to the Father except through Him. One worships the Father through and in Him (Christ). Has nothing to do with a physical place on the planet, or a building, or a group. Just Christ.

What you are claiming here is that the voice you claim is Christ, TOLD you this was the case, and even confirmed it for you.
What is missing for the reader therein Tam, is any supporting evidence to show that the claim is trustworthy.

Someone else claimed that Lazarus was the disciple Christ loved. Their support for this claim made sense; I accepted and shared it myself after my Lord showed me where Lazarus is indeed identified as the disciple Christ loved.

I am not talking about "Lazarus was the disciple Christ loved" Tam.

I think you are the one who needs to go back and remain on tangent.

You said:

Are you aware Tam that it is Christian Tradition [religion] which tells the world who wrote what?

I said:

John (of Patmos) identifies himself in Revelation. The disciple Christ loved (who is not the apostle John according to tradition, but is rather Lazarus, as my Lord has confirmed to me) identifies himself (as the disciple Christ loved) in the book of "John".


Then you said (as you quote above):

What you are claiming here is that the voice you claim is Christ, TOLD you this was the case, and even confirmed it for you.
What is missing for the reader therein Tam, is any supporting evidence to show that the claim is trustworthy.

That pretty much brings us up to date. So I am on tangent William. It is you who did not follow that train.

All you seem to have here is a completely unsupported conspiracy theory, and one it seems that even you do not accept (since you quote from that book, yourself).

My critique on anything biblical you present as evidence that the voice you say you hear and you say claims to be Christ Tam, is not my being a conspirator.

The conspiracy theory is the claim that the NT is a fictional account that "religion" made up over the course of a few centuries. A claim that you say there is no reason to suspect or accept, while simultaneously stating that this is where the evidence (never presented btw) points.

Well then you do not need a verbatim back-and-forth, William; you just need HIS words; and I have shared such.

Yes Tam. As explained to you already, in order to test the spirit re this claim, we require actual verbatim back and forth examples, so that we can ascertain what is actually being said to you - what you actually hear.
Otherwise your claim is empty and a pointless one to even be making publicly.

Share the back and forth verbatim Tam. Show us the truth of your claim that we might examine it for the claimed truth.

Once again, you have received this very thing.

You have never - to my knowledge - shared verbatim [word for word] anything of the sort being requested of you now.

This is shared in the very OP on this thread. This is shared on the thread that prompted this current exchange (regarding what love would do). This has been shared with regard to what my Lord asked me when I was a child. This has been shared on this forum with regard to what my Lord asked me when I was searching for the 'one true religion' (back when I mistakenly thought there was such a thing). You and I even had a direct (well via the internet) conversation about me using the name Christian. I shared His words to me on that matter with you, verbatim. Not to put my Lord on display. But to share with you (and the reader) information that was appropriate to the discussion we were having (re: the word/title/description of Christian).

Those are just notes about some things that happened to you Tam. It is the details which are missing.

Then you are either not reading or not believing what has been placed right in front of your own eyes.


Peace again to you.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #328]

William (peace to you), you are asking for things that have already been given to you. If you cannot refuse to believe something you can see with your very own eyes (by which I mean the verbatim words you have been given, even an exchange) how will you believe something spiritual?

I am not asking on behalf of myself alone Tam. I am asking for verbatim samples in which the reader can assess what is happening in you mind, and I have no memory of seeing anything of the sort from your writing, and there is no example of verbatim interaction between you and the voice, even in the OP of this thread.

Furthermore, since you imply that this relationship between the voice you hear and yourself is ongoing, it should be no problem for you to make the effort to record conversations you have with the voice and publish them for the reader to examine.
It is important to test what you are saying - and test the message the voice is saying to you. Test to discover what the personality is telling us , is true or not. This is how we can establish who this voice claiming to be Christ is from, and therefore who you are from.

As to the discussion on the evolution of Christianity, it is a distraction to the main event - that being "Does Christ Speak to Tam and if so, how?" How is this done and what is it that is being said - and how is it being said.
[Perhaps we can discuss the evolution of Christianity some other time - after we have agreed together that the voice you hear, claiming to be Christ, is indeed - Christ.]

I want to focus on the voice calling itself Christ and what the voice is saying to you and what you are saying to the voice, how this all happens - in your Mind, as it happens.
Word for word is the best one can ask for, since the interaction appears to be constant for you rather than spasmodic - my ask for verbatim is reasonable as it is clear you are more than willing to spend time writing...

Also, the way you speak about the voice, there is an obvious infatuation on your part, so I am wondering about why you are hesitant to share the interactions, whilst seemingly so much more enthusiastic to defend the bible and the way you believe it came into the world.

So I am asking you to channel the enthusiasm directly into sharing your interaction with the voice, with the reader.

Well then you do not need a verbatim back-and-forth, William; you just need HIS words; and I have shared such.

Yes Tam. As explained to you already, in order to test the spirit re this claim, we require actual verbatim back and forth examples, so that we can ascertain what is actually being said to you - what you actually hear.
Otherwise your claim is empty and a pointless one to even be making publicly.

Share the back and forth verbatim Tam. Show us the truth of your claim that we might examine it for the claimed truth.

Once again, you have received this very thing.

No, you have not shared and do not share what I am asking you to share Tam.
Those are just notes about some things that happened to you Tam. It is the details which are missing.
If I had received from you what I am asking you to give, we wouldn't be having this current conversation, as we would have moved to converse about what you share re what the voice actually tells you and how you reply to the voice in the moment.

Then you are either not reading or not believing what has been placed right in front of your own eyes.

I am reading Tam. What has been placed right in front of my eyes by you in insufficient evidence for any reader to be able to establish any truth to your claim. [Whether it can be believed or not]

In that way, the spirit is tested.

Disclosure of knowledge
Let yourself be taught
Give all things a fair hearing
All learning is remembering
Love Unconditionally

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #329]

If I had received from you what I am asking you to give, we wouldn't be having this current conversation,

And yet you have, and here we still are.