Does Christ speak and how?

[tam]

May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." (Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you and to the reader,

[Replying to tam in post #339]

So what Tam?

What is your argument here?

Just holding your words up to Christ (the LIGHT). Comparing your words to His words. The reader can make their own discernment. And so you can see for yourself, as well.

He said that His sheep would listen to His voice.

The problem with that Tam, is - since Christ the person would not be around to instruct as an external voice - did this mean that Christ would be an internal voice, different from one's own thought voice - not different in what words are being said - but in that voice the words were being internally spoken by, was another voice not one's own thought voice, as you appear to be saying of the voice you hear in your mind/thoughts.

That was quite the mouthful William. If I am understanding you correctly, you do not appear to be asking anything that has not already been answered.

And there is no problem with a person holding your words (or anyone's words) up to Christ and to His words. There are many false prophets and false Christs out there; as well as those who follow them. We - who belong to Christ, who are His disciples, who love HIM - are supposed to remain in HIS word.

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me."

Q: Are you allowed to question said voice?

Of course.

Not at all.

Just because a person hears a voice (distinct or otherwise) in one's head (which is not really how I have described this) does not mean that voice is Christ. Christ speaks to everyone, yes... but many do not know that He speaks, and would accept or dismiss His voice as simply their own thoughts or feelings, or as a random thought that just popped up, or perhaps just not listen at all. I did not know that Christ was speaking to me either (as I have said). Not until much much later, and then He reminded me of some other times that He had spoken to me and guided me.

You have been asked numerous times Tam.

And have responded numerous times, William.

Also - if you are going to quote me, the most honest way to do so is to provide the link from where you get the quote from, so the reader can check that you are not quote-mining.

Post 294

Okay - obviously you are not going to be more helpful and the reader is going to have to spend time looking for what you could have so easily provided through a link...is it this "Christ-voice who prompts you to behave like that, or something you decided to do for yourself?

Straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel William? This newest complaint is just a little Pharisaical don't you think? Tammy wrote the number of the post instead of posting the link. What terrible behavior; the literal worst.

Never mind that she has provided links for you on demand (though you then claim that you never received what you asked for).

All this does is come off as a desperate search for any reason to dismiss the testimony that I have given.

[minutes later...four pages back...]

So did you explain the place where I quote-mined you or took your words out of context?

Q: Why did you not know that this was Christ speaking to you at the time?

I did not know that He spoke.

You did not know any bible verse which talked about sheep hearing Christs voice?

Correct. I may have read it, but I did not SEE it.

Have you ever re-read a book or a paper or a lesson and thought to yourself 'wow, I never really saw that before'?

(or you know, a link where you were given exactly what you keep claiming you never received...)

Q: Were you shocked to hear another voice in your mind distinct from your own thought-voice?

I have not said 'in my mind' or 'a male voice' or 'a constantly running commentary' (<- things you have added to what I have said).

They were not added Tam. They have always been mentioned as possibilities re your claim, because - even when asked directly - you chose not to answer in any way which allowed the reader to understand. What you have been asked for is clarification.

Let me repeat: there is nothing more for me to say on the matter other than what has already been shared.

William, you cannot even accept the fact that I did quote my Lord verbatim, including in that link that I provided when you asked for it. I had to go looking for that as well, but you did not see me complaining about the time it took (more than four minutes). Plus, this example occurred in a conversation that you and I had. Yet still you suggested that I was not posting an example because no such example existed.

I said this:

I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His.

Exactly. Can you not see how the reader might be unclear as to what you mean by 'within me'?

Perhaps if the reader has no understanding of the spiritual. Hence, I continued to engage with any questions asked of me. Of course the reader can also turn to Christ and ask Him to help them understand (the best option). Knock and keep knocking; seek and keep seeking. Have faith in HIS promise that the door will be opened; ask for ears to hear if need be; and in the meantime continue to serve Him, remain in His word, obey His commands (if indeed you truly love Him).

But you claim to 'have communion with YHVH", so shouldn't you have at least some understanding?

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.

Q: What about the advice, makes it true?

If you are going to test a scientific claim to see if it has merit, do you test the scientist or do you test the scientific claim?

Do you think that you are presenting this in a scientific manner Tam?

Way to avoid the question.

Any scientific claim which is written by a scientist normally doesn't require the reader to test the scientist, but in this case, you are the one claiming to hear Christ voice "within", so this requires that you answer questions put to you about that claim, because it is purely subjective in nature and the reader shouldn't just take your word for it but question you about it in order to understand what it is you are even claiming.

That is why you are being asked questions.

I have answered them. Even provided for you the exact verbatim that you have demanded. You refuse to acknowledge even that small thing. You either cannot or will not see what is right in front of your eyes. How then are you going to be able to recognize or accept something that is heard within, in the spirit?

Q: How often do you think [on average] that you hear this voice?

[/quote]

I cannot answer that. Nor would it matter if I could.



Peace again to you.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #341]

That was quite the mouthful William. If I am understanding you correctly, you do not appear to be asking anything that has not already been answered.

No Tam. You are not understanding me correctly.

And there is no problem with a person holding your words (or anyone's words) up to Christ and to His words. There are many false prophets and false Christs out there; as well as those who follow them. We - who belong to Christ, who are His disciples, who love HIM - are supposed to remain in HIS word.

Of course not Tam. I having been referring to the process throughout our discussion, as "Testing the Spirit" of a thing.

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me."

Indeed, that is what I was referring to in Post #333

Post #333
Post by William » Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:05 pm

Does Christ speak and how?

Many years ago I read about the voice of Christ that Christians should be listening to and following after, according to the script.
At the time, I understood this to mean that one "hears" said voice instinctually as one learns to listen for it and did not think of this voice as being in any way a separate, distinctive voice from my own internal 'thought-voice' but one in which new thoughts arose to replace older ones which were shown to be untrue, due to the new information streaming into the thoughts of my mind.

Presently, I have no reason to think that how I understood things pertaining to the subject of Christs Voice then, need to be any different.

In that, the answer to the question from me would be that Christ does speak, and above, is one of the ways in which one can hear Christ speak.

What have you to say about this in the light of Christ held against it?

Is what I wrote, true, or do you have reason to think it as false?

Q: Are you allowed to question said voice?

Of course.

Q: Are others allowed to question said voice?

Okay - obviously you are not going to be more helpful and the reader is going to have to spend time looking for what you could have so easily provided through a link...is it this "Christ-voice who prompts you to behave like that, or something you decided to do for yourself?

Straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel William?

Pointing out that you were asked to provide a link - a simply enough thing to do - and you preferred to make the reader 'go fetch'.

[minutes later...four pages back...]

So did you explain the place where I quote-mined you or took your words out of context?

For the reader, the post in its context, explains it adequately Tam. That is why I quoted the whole thing. So the reader didn't have to 'go fetch' in order to look into that possibility of mine-quoting being done on your part. The reader can decide.

I have not said 'in my mind' or 'a male voice' or 'a constantly running commentary' (<- things you have added to what I have said).

They were not added Tam. They have always been mentioned as possibilities re your claim, because - even when asked directly - you chose not to answer in any way which allowed the reader to understand. What you have been asked for is clarification.

Let me repeat: there is nothing more for me to say on the matter other than what has already been shared.

Re you saying therefore, that you do not want to discuss this any further?
I ask, because it appears that in your creating this thread - threads being what they are - you created an opportunity to discuss thread subject matter.

Perhaps what you 'said before' didn't make sense to the readers, and so questions get asked of you and there is opportunity for clarifications to be made. Perhaps you could think of other ways of telling it which ight help the reader in this way?

Q: If you ask the Christ-voice to help you in this, do you think that he would?

William, you cannot even accept the fact that I did quote my Lord verbatim, including in that link that I provided when you asked for it. I had to go looking for that as well, but you did not see me complaining about the time it took (more than four minutes). Plus, this example occurred in a conversation that you and I had. Yet still you suggested that I was not posting an example because no such example existed.

Tam, without the links and/or quotes to where all this supposed stuff happened, the reader has no way in which to see that what you say here, is true.
Why not just repost this "quote my Lord verbatim" and we can at least get some idea of what you were/are referring to?

Can you not see how the reader might be unclear as to what you mean by 'within me'?

Perhaps if the reader has no understanding of the spiritual.

Are you referring to mysticism and the symbology of what 'within' signifies?

But you claim to 'have communion with YHVH", so shouldn't you have at least some understanding?

Yes. I wrote about it in Post#333 - perhaps you missed that post?

Q: Do you think that you are presenting this in a scientific manner Tam?

Way to avoid the question.

I would rather one just answer it. I do not think you are presenting your claim in a scientific manner Tam.

Q: How often do you think [on average] that you hear this voice?

I cannot answer that.

You make a claim about hearing the Christ-voice yet cannot tell the reader how often that this even occurs for you.
This is not very convincing Tam.

Nor would it matter if I could.

Ah. Science would differ with you on that point Tam. It matters. But since you can't, then - there doesn't appear to be much to see re any significance to your claim.

YHVH & I

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #341]

That was quite the mouthful William. If I am understanding you correctly, you do not appear to be asking anything that has not already been answered.

No Tam. You are not understanding me correctly.

Feel free to clarify. At the very least re-work your very long sentence into something clear.

And there is no problem with a person holding your words (or anyone's words) up to Christ and to His words. There are many false prophets and false Christs out there; as well as those who follow them. We - who belong to Christ, who are His disciples, who love HIM - are supposed to remain in HIS word.

Of course not Tam. I having been referring to the process throughout our discussion, as "Testing the Spirit" of a thing.

And how would you do that without holding up the words (message/content) that someone else claims against Christ and His word?

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me."

Indeed, that is what I was referring to in Post #333

Post #333
Post by William » Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:05 pm

Does Christ speak and how?

Many years ago I read about the voice of Christ that Christians should be listening to and following after, according to the script.
At the time, I understood this to mean that one "hears" said voice instinctually as one learns to listen for it and did not think of this voice as being in any way a separate, distinctive voice from my own internal 'thought-voice' but one in which new thoughts arose to replace older ones which were shown to be untrue, due to the new information streaming into the thoughts of my mind.

Presently, I have no reason to think that how I understood things pertaining to the subject of Christs Voice then, need to be any different.

In that, the answer to the question from me would be that Christ does speak, and above, is one of the ways in which one can hear Christ speak.

What have you to say about this in the light of Christ held against it?

If I had something to say about that I would have responded.

Is what I wrote, true, or do you have reason to think it as false?

What you wrote is mainly about what you have thought. If you claimed something you heard came from Christ (or any other spirit, or even just yourself) I would hold that up to Christ and His word as I have done in the past (even on this thread) with regard to your claims about the Father's house, among various other things.

viewtopic.php?p=1030543#p1030543
viewtopic.php?p=1030598#p1030598
viewtopic.php?p=1030141#p1030141
viewtopic.php?p=1030183#p1030183
viewtopic.php?p=1104063#p1104063

And a quick recent summary on that matter:

I'm going to stop you right there, because we have had this conversation before, and I have supported what I said (in previous posts as well) with what Christ has said and what He has promised to do:

He is the One preparing the place for us in His Father's house... therefore... we are not the ones creating the rooms... therefore... there is nothing false in these rooms (or mansions as you prefer)... because Christ is preparing them, and Christ is the Truth and speaks only truth, and has promised to lead us into all truth. HE is also the perfect representation and image of His Father. If you want to know the Father, then you must (and need only) look to His Son.

viewtopic.php?p=1104083#p1104083

Q: Are you allowed to question said voice?

Of course.

Q: Are others allowed to question said voice?

How could a person test the inspired expression if they were not permitted to question 'said voice'?

Okay - obviously you are not going to be more helpful and the reader is going to have to spend time looking for what you could have so easily provided through a link...is it this "Christ-voice who prompts you to behave like that, or something you decided to do for yourself?

Straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel William?

Pointing out that you were asked to provide a link - a simply enough thing to do - and you preferred to make the reader 'go fetch'.

I am just going to defer to my previous response.

[minutes later...four pages back...]

So did you explain the place where I quote-mined you or took your words out of context?

For the reader, the post in its context, explains it adequately Tam.

Yes, of course... I must explain exactly in precise detail everything (even after you have received what you asked for but continue to demand it), but the post in its context is enough for you to leave to the reader.

I have not said 'in my mind' or 'a male voice' or 'a constantly running commentary' (<- things you have added to what I have said).

They were not added Tam. They have always been mentioned as possibilities re your claim, because - even when asked directly - you chose not to answer in any way which allowed the reader to understand. What you have been asked for is clarification.

Let me repeat: there is nothing more for me to say on the matter other than what has already been shared.

Re you saying therefore, that you do not want to discuss this any further?

I am saying it has already been said. The reader can see that for themselves through the OP, the various links that I posted above, the link to the verbatim that you asked for (even though that exists in this thread as well, even in the OP).

I ask, because it appears that in your creating this thread - threads being what they are - you created an opportunity to discuss thread subject matter.

As has been done...

William, you cannot even accept the fact that I did quote my Lord verbatim, including in that link that I provided when you asked for it. I had to go looking for that as well, but you did not see me complaining about the time it took (more than four minutes). Plus, this example occurred in a conversation that you and I had. Yet still you suggested that I was not posting an example because no such example existed.

Tam, without the links and/or quotes to where all this supposed stuff happened, the reader has no way in which to see that what you say here, is true.

Such as been provided. Such has been ignored. By you. I am making no statement about those who are reading along.

Why not just repost this "quote my Lord verbatim" and we can at least get some idea of what you were/are referring to?

Ah... now see, a reference (to multiple examples) was given and it was not enough for you (even though at least one of those references was a direct conversation you and I had). The post in context (from the OP) gives a verbatim example... but this was not enough for you either. The link that was asked for, and given, is apparently not enough for you now either. There must be a repost along with the link. Is the reader supposed to believe that this then will be enough for you?

Can you not see how the reader might be unclear as to what you mean by 'within me'?

Perhaps if the reader has no understanding of the spiritual.

Are you referring to mysticism and the symbology of what 'within' signifies?

Since I have no idea what you mean with those terms, I cannot answer that question.

As for the reader, I repeat:

Hence, I continued to engage with any questions asked of me. Of course the reader can also turn to Christ and ask Him to help them understand (the best option). Knock and keep knocking; seek and keep seeking. Have faith in HIS promise that the door will be opened; ask for ears to hear if need be; and in the meantime continue to serve Him, remain in His word, obey His commands (if indeed you truly love Him).

But you claim to 'have communion with YHVH", so shouldn't you have at least some understanding?

Yes. I wrote about it in Post#333 - perhaps you missed that post?

So why the big issue then?

Q: Do you think that you are presenting this in a scientific manner Tam?

Way to avoid the question.

I would rather one just answer it.

As you did with the question I asked you?



Peace again to you.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #343]

Is what I wrote, in post #333 true, or do you have reason to think it as false?

What you wrote is mainly about what you have thought. If you claimed something you heard came from Christ (or any other spirit, or even just yourself) I would hold that up to Christ and His word as I have done in the past (even on this thread) with regard to your claims about the Father's house, among various other things.

viewtopic.php?p=1030543#p1030543

Peace still to you William,

Responding to your post about the OP, viewtopic.php?p=738377#p738377

He speaks in words.

Words are sounds. So he speaks using sounds.

Words are not necessarily sounds (or at least not audible sounds heard with physical ears). We can think in words, and words can be written <- neither of those make physically audible sounds. Words spoken from the Spirit (from Christ), are - in my experience - heard within, with spiritual ears. Still a voice - but not one heard with PHYSICAL ears.

You might have understood (and meant) the same thing, but just in case, I wanted to be clear.

He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of).

Sounds and vision...from what you have shared re your particular relationship with The Lord Tam, giving you a vision would do nothing to enhance your understanding of the true nature of this reality experience.

I think what you might mean here, William, is that giving me a vision (of something) would do nothing to enhance an understanding of what you claim to be the 'true nature of this reality experience'.

On that I believe we are in agreement.

The best he could do is to give you a vision of what you expect to be truth and love, which limits what the vision can convey.

Says who? Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

This is in line with my own understanding that in the next phase we will experience whatever we will create for ourselves. How can it be any other way?

Why could it not be any other way (than what is in line with your own understanding)?

A vision or any communication could certainly be of something real/true (truth is the language that Christ speaks speaks and shares; He does not deceive). Why do you think it could not be?

He speaks in dreams.

Sounds and vision and experiences...

Words, visions, dreams...

He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me.

He uses the individuals brain in order to retrieve past experience relevant to current experience...joining the dots which eventually show the individual the serendipity and synchronicity of nature. "We are within a creation/reality simulation."

Bring to mind - remind.

(and it is this world that contains the lies, the illusions, William. Not the Father's house - and not the Kingdom or world to come when God makes everything new.)

He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible.

What about other books - words and sayings from other books? Does your Lord use other books to speak to you and if not, why not?

He can, if relevant. That was covered in the previous point re: something read.

He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Does he use memes and sayings from other religions?

I bolded and underlined the relevant part in my quote.

If they were HIS sayings, then what you ask would apply. If they were not His sayings, then it would not apply.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.

Does your Lord use all manner of medium in order to convey to you the exactness of what it is he is attempting to communicate with you?

I don't understand your question or its relevance to what I said.

The language that He speaks is truth.

A slave is not free. It is said that The Lord himself told folk that the truth would set them free. Does The Lord use other people to try and assist those who are still enslaved to their beliefs?

Again, I do not see the relevance of your response to my words.

But as to your point:

1 - what a slave does when granted their freedom is up to them. They are free to make that choice, yes?

2 - Yes, Christ did say that the Truth would set us free. Meaning HE would set us free. He is the Truth WHO sets us free. Compare John 8:32 to John 8:36. Christ also said that if one wishes to be greatest then one must first become LEAST. Just as He also made HIMSELF least (see also Luke 22:26, 27; Matt 20:28), and just as He does the Father's will over His own will. Not out of fear, and not because the Father forces Him, or even because He is not free. But out of LOVE for His Father. He is also the Son of God, and His Father has given Him the highest position (second only to the Father Himself).

He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.

Then IF The Lord does use other people as yet another means in which to communicate with you Tam, why do you think your particular understanding of 'the truth' and 'love' is correct enough that you reject their testimony and demonize them, by implying that they are hearing 'lying spirits'? [see our conversation re this LINK]
What evidence have you actually presented in relation to 'lying spirits' influencing people whom you judge as NOT being true and loving [like The Lord] to which clearly shows us that you yourself are NOT the one being influenced by 'lying spirits'?

Christ is the mediator between man and God. There is no mediator between man and Christ. (Though we can discuss, and sometimes a person may endeavor to expound the truth more accurately to someone else, such as in the case with Priscilla and Aquila to Apollos, see Acts 18:25-27, though this is done in love. Iron sharpening iron and all that). But giving your question the benefit of the doubt, if Christ used another person to communicate with me... then that person would not be saying something in conflict with Christ, and would certainly not be teaching me (or anyone) to disregard the words and teachings and promises OF Christ, in order to embrace a different teaching.


**

So again, see 'test the inspired expressions' (see the OP).


If a spirit (or person) says something that is against Christ (His words, His teaching, His command), then I can know not to listen; that spirit and/or inspired expression is not from Him.

If a spirit or person suggests that I (or anyone else) reject Christ and His teaching, His word, His invitation, His command - then I know not to listen to them; that spirit and/or suggestion is not from Christ.

One can also ask Christ for the truth of that matter (or any other matter).

On the thread that you are referring to, it was suggested that I reject the teaching of Christ, that I even reject the place being prepared by Christ IN the Father's house. This is in direct conflict with Christ and His word (I mean - come on - these were suggestions to reject Christ and His word and His invitation to be in the Father's house). The source of those suggestions could not have been from Christ (and therefore could not have been from His Father).


Not every spirit or inspired expression is from God. Hence we are told to test the inspired expression. 1John 4:3.

(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true.

So we have a clue as to what this instrument you test difference by that I ask you to produce...but - clearly - while you reference it to imply that it exists, you do not say what that instrument actually is...so how are we to test your claims?

Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)

As should be clear to the reader Tam, we have some idea that you do not resonate with other types of truth and love if they conflict with what you have [somehow] being taught to recognize said conditions...but what makes this "truth and love" you think you have and hold,
'the real deal'?

Christ. His word, His teaching. I'm not sure what you are not understanding about this? Or is it just that you have been shown that something you 'have and hold as the real deal', is not what Christ teaches?

Please note from the OP:

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...

and,

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.


If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

From what you have said in your witness as a 'slave of Christ' etc...there is no evidence presented which helps confirm your claim is legitimate.
Somewhere "is it written" [ I think I have read ] along the lines that there will be those who call Christ "Lord" to whom Christ will tell them that he does not know who they are - has never meet them or communed with them and will tell their lying butts to be gone.

How Am I [are we] to know you are not one of those Tam?

A - I am not the one people should be following (I can only point to Christ, bear witness to Him, He is the One you should be following, if indeed you are or desire to be His disciple).

B - Lets have the words in context to get a better understanding:

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Is it not the will of His Father that we listen to the Son? Believe in the Son?

C - Test anything that I share against Christ. If I am saying something that is against Christ (against what He says, against the example that He set, against His teaching), then obviously I am the one who is in error, and you should remain in and listen to HIM. But by all means, point what you believe to be error out, so that I may examine myself, turn to my Lord, and correct my error if need be.





Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

viewtopic.php?p=1030598#p1030598

Peace still to you William,

Is that like a magic spell you are casting Tam? No need to incant such, as I have peace already.

It is just a wish of peace William. Not a magic spell.

Luke 10:5, 6

The best he could do is to give you a vision of what you expect to be truth and love, which limits what the vision can convey.

Says who? Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

It is not a claim. It is a reasonable observation.

Based on what?

Perhaps - in that light, you can drop the defensiveness.

How is it defensive to ask for some evidence to support your claim?

I am not judging you,

I did not think you were.

I am simply saying that in all cases where an individual does not ask to experience such things, they will not be troubled by The Lord with visions etc which The Lord would know would be too much for them due to their beliefs.

Or perhaps it would be more wise to ask for the truth of a matter, rather than ask for proof of something that might not even be true?

This is in line with my own understanding that in the next phase we will experience whatever we will create for ourselves. How can it be any other way?

Why could it not be any other way (than what is in line with your own understanding)?

Do you not believe that you will experience being with The Lord in your next phase of experience? What does it matter that you create the experience for yourself?

I answered this question on the other thread.

Because truth matters. Not to everyone, but to some of us, and certainly to Christ - who is the Truth and promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth - and to His Father. And I would rather a painful truth than a 'comforting lie'.

The evidence [already given to you which you rejected as being ''from lying spirits"] shows me that it will be that way.

No evidence was given (in fact that was one of the reasons I stated that there was no reason to accept the claims you were making about 'hells').

Each individual will create their own reality based upon their personality and attitude [both sub conscious and conscious attitude]. It is a reasonable assumption to make regarding the evidence.

If you are making an assumption (even if you deem that assumption to be reasonable), you are not stating something you know to be true.

I do not deem that assumption to be reasonable.

A vision or any communication could certainly be of something real/true (truth is the language that Christ speaks speaks and shares; He does not deceive). Why do you think it could not be?

I am not arguing that Christ deceives.

This is not an answer to the question I asked.

He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me.

He uses the individuals brain in order to retrieve past experience relevant to current experience...joining the dots which eventually show the individual the serendipity and synchronicity of nature. "We are within a creation/reality simulation."

Bring to mind - remind.

(and it is this world that contains the lies, the illusions, William. Not the Father's house - and not the Kingdom or world to come when God makes everything new.)

Would you then say that if you created your own reality based upon your personality and beliefs, such will amount to 'lies' Tam?

If my belief were untrue, then yes.

But the teaching that the Father's house is filled with deception and 'self-created hells'... is a false teaching that has nothing to do with anything Christ has said about His Father's house.

He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible.

What about other books - words and sayi ... why not?

He can, if relevant. That was covered in the previous point re: something read.

If relevant to what Tam? Where it is covered in Christendom's bible?

Relevant to something He is teaching. But let me clarify that I said that He can open my eyes so that I can understand something that is written. Not that He is using a book to speak to me.

He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Does he use memes and sayings from other religions?

I bolded and underlined the relevant part in my quote.

If they were HIS sayings, then what you ask would apply. If they were not His sayings, then it would not apply.

You do understand that the bible itself claims that The Lord spoke about so much that none of the books in the libraries of the world could contain those things?

I'm not sure how that is relevant to my response, and while I do get your point (in general) that Christ said more than what is written, that verse is about what He did:

Now there are also many other things that [Jesus] did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Given that Tam, how can you claim that The Lord didn't say such things 'because they are not recorded in the bible'?

I never made that claim.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.

Does your Lord use all manner of medium in order to convey to you the exactness of what it is he is attempting to communicate with you?

I don't understand your question or its relevance to what I said.

Does The Lord get through to you clearly so that you understand exactly what he is conveying to you and does he use all manner of medium to do so, or is he limited by only being able to use the medium(s?) YOU dictate he should use in relation to your relationship you claim to have with him?

Nothing in my quote (bolded) suggests a medium at all, William. So I do not know what you are going on about.

The language that He speaks is truth.

A slave is not free. It is said that The Lord himself told folk that the truth would set them free. Does The Lord use other people to try and assist those who are still enslaved to their beliefs?

Again, I do not see the relevance of your response to my words.

You claim to be a "slave to Christ" - You claim to know "The Truth". You cannot both be a slave and free. If the truth shall set you free, you cannot be a slave. The Truth cannot enslave you.

I explained this already, but again, I do not see the relevance of your response to my words.

The language that Christ speaks is truth.

How does a statement about me have any bearing on that?

But giving your question the benefit of the doubt, if Christ used another person to communicate with me... then that person would not be saying something in conflict with Christ, and would certainly not be teaching me (or anyone) to disregard the words and teachings and promises OF Christ, in order to embrace a different teaching.

Said more succinctly, you are saying that "if it isn't in the bible, then it cannot be from Christ."

I have not said that at all. I told you this on the other thread. I have told you in this thread. Even the OP on this thread contains a specific example of my Lord speaking directly to me.

so how can you truthfully claim that the way I view what happens in the afterlife, is something Jesus would NOT have said or told others?

I responded to this on the other thread (more than once).

viewtopic.php?p=1030183#p1030183

So again, see 'test the inspired expressions' (see the OP).

What is to say that my whole perspective is NOT a case of "testing inspired expressions" and finding some, such as your own beliefs in regard to afterlife, questionable and in need of examination?

You are certainly free to draw you own perspectives and conclusions.

If a spirit (or person) says something that is against Christ (His words, His teaching, His command), then I can know not to listen; that spirit and/or inspired expression is not from Him.

That is not the case though is it Tam. The bible does not hold but a tiny fraction of what Christ teaches, so to be limited by trusting only in that medium to "tell you what The Lord said", is faulty reasoning, and unreasonable for that.

If you are admitting here that the bible does hold a tiny fraction of what Christ taught, then it does not make sense that He would later teach something that is in conflict with that tiny fraction, does it? He stated Himself (in what is written) that He has much more to teach, more than His disciples could yet bear - no doubt you accept that saying as being from him - but that is not the same as saying He has things to teach that are in conflict with those things He already taught.

And (though I mentioned this in the other thread) one does not even have to look at the bible to see that it makes no sense to accept that Christ teaches what you have claimed.

Christ is the Truth. Christ promises to lead His sheep into all truth. Christ said that He was going to prepare a place for us in His Father's house.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.



If Christ is preparing the place for us - how are we creating our own 'alternate realities' in this house?

If Christ is taking us to be with Him in His Father's house - a place that He prepares for us - and a place where He IS - and He leads His sheep into TRUTH - how can the Father's house, where Christ brings us, be a place filled with what would be lies?

On the thread that you are referring to, it was suggested that I reject the teaching of Christ, that I even reject the place being prepared by Christ IN the Father's house. This is in direct conflict with Christ and His word (I mean - come on - these were suggestions to reject Christ and His word and His invitation to be in the Father's house). The source of those suggestions could not have been from Christ (and therefore could not have been from His Father).

Yet you cannot say WHY you believe that this is in direct conflict with Christ.

I did say why. I explained why numerous times on the other thread. You refuse to respond to or even acknowledge those explanations.

You claim [along with the Church] that the bible is 'his word'? Christ claims otherwise. Who should I believe. Tam? [the church] Or Jesus?

You should believe Christ (though I am wondering where you learned that Christ claims otherwise. I am not arguing the statement, just wondering where you got that, though I hold no expectations that you will respond to this question).

That being said, I did not make the claim that you continue to accuse me of making.

Not every spirit or inspired expression is from God. Hence we are told to test the inspired expression. 1John 4:3.

Test all things Tam. Including the stories of the bible AND the middle eastern mythologies in particular...these are not exempt from the advice to test ALL things, despite what the church may have so far convinced you.

Indeed (except for the continued usage of the word 'church').

Why do you keep saying 'the church' as if you accept the definition a religion has given to what 'the church' is?

The Church is the Body of Christ - His Bride. He is the Head, His Church - His Body - is made of people. The Church is not a religion.

Please note from the OP:

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ

What evidence have you produced regarding that Tam?

The personal testimony is part of the evidence I have provided that Christ speaks. I state this openly in the OP.

b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ

Do you limit this testimony to only what the bible characters have testified?

No. The answer to that question was also contained in the OP.

c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter

What about the bulk of what Christ taught which was not written on the matter?

Should I just believe what anyone says Christ taught? Or should I test and ask Him for myself?

If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...

What makes you think I am not communicating respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic? Is it because I disagree with your position on this matter and you find that unacceptable and un-Christlike?

I never suggested such a thing. Please see the bold.

and,

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

Since you brought in the possibility that I was being deceived by lying spirits Tam, why do you think it impossible YOU are not the one being deceived by such beings? That is a reasonable question to reflect back at you, is it not?

Sure that is a reasonable question to reflect back at me. Hence, I said that no one should take my word, but should test the inspired expressions.

As for me, I know my Lord and I am remaining in His word. If I were to reject His word and His teaching, and go seeking a different teaching than what He has taught me, then I could be deceived by a lying spirit (which is what I said on the other thread). So I will not do that. First and foremost, though, because I am a Christian (and disciple of Christ), and He has never lied to me. How unfaithful, how disloyal, would it be if I were to seek a different teaching than His, when He has never spoken anything to me except the truth, and that from love? I will not do that.


What you think about that, what you do with that, is not up to me.

If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

Unless of course he wants to do so, and you prevent him from doing so by believing that he does not want to do so. How can you say you are one of his if he has never proven himself to you? That make no logical sense.

I was not referring to Him proving his existence. (note that I also said that we have to prove ourselves to him, but why would we have to prove our existence to him?)

And He has ALREADY proven Himself to us (proven His love among other things - love for His Father and for us) by giving His life for life (not once, but twice - first at the creation, to bring creation into existence, and second at His sacrifice/death on the earth).

I made no statement about his desire or ability to prove Himself to us (or not). I said only that He does not HAVE to prove Himself to us. He already did that.



- a slave of Christ,
tammy

viewtopic.php?p=1030141#p1030141

Peace again to you William,

Perhaps you can ask your lord to give you an experience of visiting a few of those aspects of afterlife [alternate realities] so that you have something in which to gauge by in order to ascertain the truth of the matter.

Nope. Not gonna do that. Forget it.


I will not ask Christ to show me some other claim or teaching... especially not when Christ has already taught me the truth on His Father's house, and on where we go when we die, and the resurrection (first and second). I will remain in my Lord's word, because I am HIS disciple. Doing as suggested above would be no different than me asking Christ - the TRUTH - to show me a lie, a deception. Not only can He not do that (He is not a deceiver - the deceiver would be the Adversary, the father of lies)... asking to be shown a deception could leave a person vulnerable to being deceived by a lying spirit.

It appears to me that you believe there are 'lying spirits' who can pretend to be your Lord.

I said only that there are lying spirits. Perhaps you should refrain from adding to something people have said.

I will only ask my Lord for the truth... truth that comes from Him and His Father. My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) has never lied to me.
And He has already taught me how to test the inspired expression (or any claim that another person makes). To test the inspired expression against Him (and His word), and to test the inspired expression against love.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I dare say your Lord has never even appeared to you and spoken with you and you are sourcing your information from something other than The Lord, thinking that in this, you have a relationship with The Lord?

You are wrong.

My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) does indeed speak, I (and all His sheep) hear His voice.

I have not made this a secret in the years that I have been on this forum, so I am surprised that you would suggest otherwise.

William even supplied the words from Christ about His Father's house that refute the claim being made (as shared above with the full quote regarding that House).

So I will continue in my Lord's word.

“If you remain in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.”

Ah so it becomes apparent that your relationship is not with The Lord but with something which you claim is The Lords 'word'...

Ah, William, that is quite the leap you just made. Just because I quote from something He said, does not mean that He does not also speak.

do you know why The Fathers House is big enough to fit mansions? Do you know what 'The Fathers House' is? Have you seen this house?

Do you know that you are misusing His words about the Father's house? Do you know that His actual words that you are 'using' refute the system that you are presenting?

There is deceit in that, William, or ignorance. Either of which should be a red flag both to you and to the reader.

And since you seem to have ignored this the first time around, I will repost it:

**
My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One and Holy (Spirit) of JAH.

He does not teach that we 'make our own afterlife'. He does teach that there are many rooms in His Father's house, but also that HE goes there to prepare a place for us (whom He chooses), so that He can return and bring us to Him.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. John 14:2, 3

So a) He is preparing out place; and b) He brings us to where HE is, to be with HIM.

He certainly does not teach that He goes to prepare a room (or mansion) of 'hell' for us. Nor does He teach that there is a 'hell' in His Father's house at all. Nor does He teach that He prepares rooms of our own 'creation'. He does teach us what 'hell' is, as pertains to mankind: the world of the dead (sheol/hades), where the dead (not in Christ) are asleep and awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ go 'under the altar' awaiting the first resurrection. And the other word that pertains to mankind that has been translated as 'hell' is actually gehenna (the garbage dump outside Israel, and so, symbolic; a place where both body and soul can be destroyed - not tormented).


So my Lord certainly does teach that His Father's house has many rooms. But He does not teach the things you have said about His Father's house or the many rooms within.

**

As to the existence of hells, If your Lord knows that these are real, then he would have mentioned them in that context.

I can't make sense of this statement.

Christ doesn't mention 'hells' at all.

It is unknown as to what Christ did not mention as the authors do not say.

So does that mean a person gets to make up whatever they want?

If your Lord knows that Hell is real, then he would have mentioned so, in that context.
Since the authors claiming to write what The Lord spoke, clearly write of the notion that individuals can end up in such a place, we are left with no choice but to accept that your Lord knew this and mentioned Hell as a real place which can be experienced by individual human consciousnesses.

Again, the meaning of hell has been explained in the previous posts, and throughout this thread. It has nothing to do with the idea that you are presenting.

Personally, I see nothing untoward about the idea that individual personalities create their own realities based on their attitudes and beliefs in the next phase of their experience,

Just because you see nothing untoward about it does not make it true. Nor is it a reason for anyone - especially one in Christ - to entertain the idea (with no evidence for it, and Christ's teaching against it.)

"One in Christ" is something of a claim which cannot be substantiated and so has no particular merit as part of ones argument. It is a meaningless statement in that context.

Perhaps you should apply these words to your own claims, William.

You seem to have sidestepped the point, but my words were pretty simple. A person who is in Christ (a person who belongs to Christ; who is part of His Body; His Church; His Bride) - has no reason to accept or even entertain the idea that you present, not the least because you have provided no evidence, but first and foremost because Christ does not teach it, and what He does teach refutes it.

His disciples remain in HIS word.

As a clear example - your own beliefs will have you experiencing your own creation based upon your own attitudes and personality in general and what would it matter [to you or anyone] if you were under the impression that The Lord had created said place you will next experience?

A - see the flaws in the system you are presenting, above.

B - this would be a deception. This would not be truth. My Lord IS and SPEAKS the truth. He promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth. He does not deceive. He does not lie. And nothing in what you are describing is from, or even about, truth. The 'afterlife' of the system you are presenting is a deception.

My Lord - who is the TRUTH - can have nothing to do with something like that. He does not teach it.

On the contrary...it is not The Lords choice that the scribes did not record such teaching, except to hint at it now and again.

There is no evidence that yours is a teaching the scribes "chose not to record". The evidence shows just the opposite. Because the words that Christ is recorded as saying directly REFUTE this teaching that you are presenting. As does reason and even common sense - for lies do not come from truth, and Christ is the Truth.


Come on, William, think about this.

The Father permits the illusion to occur for us all. If you want The Real, then I invite you to leave The Fathers House and come and enjoy The Fathers Garden.

A - though the following is just repetition of things you seem to be refusing to look at: Christ does not promise to lead His sheep into illusion. He promises to leads His sheep into all truth.

B - I am not going to deny my Lord and His word and the place that He prepares for me. (Nor is there some kind of choice between His Father's house and the Garden - since my Lord is in His Father's house and He is also the Tree of Life in the Garden/Paradise). I am also not going to listen to you (or to anyone else) over Him. That would be disobeying God Himself, who led me to His Son when I asked to know His Truth, and who told me to listen to that Son. And if you are going to "use" (some) of the words Christ spoke, why not listen to all of His words on the matter? If you think He has enough authority to have spoken the truth about the Father's house, then would it not be wise to listen to all His words on the matter, and to follow Him? Instead of quote-mining and adding your own spin (or listening to someone else who has added their own spin)?

As long as you are happy [and it sounds to me like you expect to be because you will be with The Lord] then it matters not that YOU created said place. The Lord simply prepared the groundwork...you did the rest....what does it matter?

Because truth matters. Not to everyone, but to some of us, and certainly to Christ - who is the Truth and promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth - and to His Father. And I would rather a painful truth than a 'comforting lie'.

Then may I respectfully suggest that you leave The Fathers House and come join me in The Fathers Garden...

No.

The fact that you are asking such a thing - for me to deny my Lord and the truth that He teaches; to disobey my Father in heaven who drew me to His Son and told me to listen to Him; to reject the place that my Lord prepares for me... reveals that the source you are listening to cannot be from Christ or from His Father. I knew that already, but I state it out right for your sake and for the sake of the reader.


Unless you post something new that requires a response, I think this conversation is at an end.


Again, peace to you William (and to the reader),
- a slave of Christ,
tammy

viewtopic.php?p=1030183#p1030183

Peace to you,

William, I did not 'fob you off' (I had to look that up to see what it meant).

In my first response to your claim, I explained the reason I could not accept your claim: a lack of evidence provided... and the fact that goes against what Christ teaches (<-this is most important to me, as it should be to anyone who professes to be Christian). I also listed other explanations for the phenomenon these other people claim to be experiencing.

viewtopic.php?p=1030073#p1030073


You then asked me questions which I answered. You used a partial quote from Christ (from His words on "In my Father's house there are many rooms", or mansions as you prefer) to help support your claim. But you ignored the rest of what He said in that quote. I explained this in my second post viewtopic.php?p=1030075#p1030075 . You chose not to respond to those things directly, but I have nothing more to say on that matter than what has already been said.

So I have answered the questions that you asked, William, but I see no reason to continue to repeat the same things over and over again.

I am going to clarify some things though:

I will only ask my Lord for the truth... truth that comes from Him and His Father. My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) has never lied to me.
And He has already taught me how to test the inspired expression (or any claim that another person makes). To test the inspired expression against Him (and His word), and to test the inspired expression against love.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I dare say your Lord has never even appeared to you and spoken with you and you are sourcing your information from something other than The Lord, thinking that in this, you have a relationship with The Lord?

I corrected this already. But I would like to ask a follow-up question(s), if I may:

Did you find something to be wrong with my words above? If so, what? That I would ask for the truth? That I would listen to what Christ teaches and remain in Him? And even if I had meant only what is written (though I did not mean this) - how could you possibly find fault with that when you are quote-mining a phrase from Him in what is written to try and support your claim?

My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One and Holy (Spirit) of JAH.

He does not teach that we 'make our own afterlife'. He does teach that there are many rooms in His Father's house, but also that HE goes there to prepare a place for us (whom He chooses), so that He can return and bring us to Him.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. John 14:2, 3

So a) He is preparing out place; and b) He brings us to where HE is, to be with HIM.

He certainly does not teach that He goes to prepare a room (or mansion) of 'hell' for us. Nor does He teach that there is a 'hell' in His Father's house at all. Nor does He teach that He prepares rooms of our own 'creation'. He does teach us what 'hell' is, as pertains to mankind: the world of the dead (sheol/hades), where the dead (not in Christ) are asleep and awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ go 'under the altar' awaiting the first resurrection.


So my Lord certainly does teach that His Father's house has many rooms. But He does not teach the things you have said about His Father's house or the many rooms within.

On the one hand - your Lord [as per the story] teaches you what the authors want you to believe.

You are the one who referenced these words to begin with, are you not?

I simply provided the full quote so that you could see both the context and the meaning (which do not support the claim you made).

On the other hand - The Lord, teaches that you have to learn the truth for yourself.

By listening to and knowing Him (He is Himself the Truth, and speaks the truth, and promises to lead His sheep into all truth).

That is what I am doing.

And the other word that pertains to mankind that has been translated as 'hell' is actually gehenna (the garbage dump outside Israel, and so, symbolic; a place where both body and soul can be destroyed - not tormented).

Unfortunately for your argument, the authors didn't take great care in making sure people understood that Tam.

The authors used the word gehenna. The authors did not use the word hell. Later scribes translated the word gehenna into the word hell, thereby confusing the issue and the difference between gehenna and hades(greek)/sheol(hebrew). Perhaps some further research into the subject would be of assistance?


viewtopic.php?p=1028604#p1028604
viewtopic.php?p=970644#p970644

No one expects garbage to have feelings and gnash teeth.

Who said anything about weeping (feelings) and gnashing teeth in respect to gehenna? Where are you getting that from?

Unfortunately for your argument, the authors made it clear that the character of Jesus speaks of things far too literally for there to be any confusion over whether he was being figurative.

Can you be more specific so that I can better understand your objection?

As much as these stories [as written] give rise to relevant questions there seem to be folk who are happy to turn a blind eye and fabricate a concoction of interpretations to explain away those glaringly obvious observations regarding said mythologies.

Are you not doing that VERY thing with regard to the words at John 14:2,3?

As to the existence of hells, If your Lord knows that these are real, then he would have mentioned them in that context.

I can't make sense of this statement.

Christ doesn't mention 'hells' at all.

It is unknown as to what Christ did not mention as the authors do not say.

So does that mean a person gets to make up whatever they want?

Re-read my posts. I am not 'making this up'

My question was with regard to what Christ is supposed to have said.

Your only retort seems to be that everything experienced in these manner, are from 'lying spirits'

This is not true. Please re-read my original response.

If your Lord knows that Hell is real, then he would have mentioned so, in that context.
Since the authors claiming to write what The Lord spoke, clearly write of the notion that individuals can end up in such a place, we are left with no choice but to accept that your Lord knew this and mentioned Hell as a real place which can be experienced by individual human consciousnesses.

I never said hell was not a real place. Hell (translated from the greek hades, or the hebrew sheol) simply means the world of the dead. Please see the links provided above, which I think includes a reference to my first or second post on this thread.

Again, the meaning of hell has been explained in the previous posts, and throughout this thread. It has nothing to do with the idea that you are presenting.

Not at all.

I apologize, because I confused this thread with one of other two long running threads on hell. So there has been limited explanation on this thread. I believe at least one of the links I provided above point to a long running thread on the subject. That being said, there is nothing about hell - as written in the bible or from Christ - that supports the idea that you are presenting of 'hells'.

Certainly not all calling themselves Christians, agree with your interpretation on the matter. Show me why those ones are lying and you are telling the truth.
Why should I even believe your interpretations over my own alternate experiences?

By your own admission, you have not experienced these 'hells'. But what you believe is your business. I meant it when I said I did not wish to offend you, and for that reason, I regret responding to your post in the first place. But I am not the one telling you what to believe. What I told you is what I cannot accept from your claim - and why I cannot accept it.

You seem to have sidestepped the point, but my words were pretty simple. A person who is in Christ (a person who belongs to Christ; who is part of His Body; His Church; His Bride) - has no reason to accept or even entertain the idea that you present, not the least because you have provided no evidence, but first and foremost because Christ does not teach it, and what He does teach refutes it.

So you claim Tam - but since the church has a history of lies and deception it is hardly a good thing to be a slave to it, or to the stories it tells you to believe in as truth.
Why do you accept such stories as truth when you have been provided no evidence that the stories are indeed, truth? Why the double standard here Tam?

I do not know what you mean when you say 'the church', but I assume you mean the religion that calls itself "Christianity" (with its many sects and denominations)? I am not a slave to that, or even a part of that. I do not know what stories you are referring to that I am supposed to be accepting without evidence, so I cannot respond to your 'double standard' question.

His disciples remain in HIS word.

Bibles didn't exist until the church created them Tam.

Did I claim that the Bible was the word of Christ? I am speaking of His words, His teachings, His commands.

His disciples remain in His word. His disciples keep His commands. His disciples listen to and follow Him.

What is the issue here?

So the Lords Disciples were not subject to what the bible claims their Lord said. So the claim that the Bible is 'the word of The Lord' is not necessarily and quite unlikely to be the case.
But if you have the evidence to support the claim that the bible IS the Lords Word, I am happy to see it.

I did not make that claim to begin with.

As a clear example - your own beliefs will have you experiencing your own creation based upon your own attitudes and personality in general and what would it matter [to you or anyone] if you were under the impression that The Lord had created said place you will next experience?

A - see the flaws in the system you are presenting, above.

B - this would be a deception. This would not be truth. My Lord IS and SPEAKS the truth. He promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth. He does not deceive. He does not lie. And nothing in what you are describing is from, or even about, truth. The 'afterlife' of the system you are presenting is a deception.

My Lord - who is the TRUTH - can have nothing to do with something like that. He does not teach it.

On the contrary...it is not The Lords choice that the scribes did not record such teaching, except to hint at it now and again.

There is no evidence that yours is a teaching the scribes "chose not to record". The evidence shows just the opposite. Because the words that Christ is recorded as saying directly REFUTE this teaching that you are presenting. As does reason and even common sense - for lies do not come from truth, and Christ is the Truth.

You claim there is evidence yet you continue not to show us that evidence Tam. What of The Lords 'teaching' is it that supposedly REFUTES what I am saying is the likely thing to expect in the next phase? [afterlife].

I have been presenting it.

A - see previous explanation about John 14 (repeated a few times now).

B - the dead in Christ are under the altar awaiting the first resurrection (Rev 6:9-11). The dead not in Christ are in Hades (the meaning of which is explained in the above links) awaiting the resurrection of the dead (Rev 20:11-13, though this is referred to by the prophet Daniel as well). This has also been explained previously.

C - Christ promises to lead His sheep into all truth, and promises to return and bring His disciples to be with Him in the place He has prepared for them in His Father's house. An illusion is by definition NOT the truth. This has also been explained more fully, previously.

The Father permits the illusion to occur for us all. If you want The Real, then I invite you to leave The Fathers House and come and enjoy The Fathers Garden.

A - though the following is just repetition of things you seem to be refusing to look at: Christ does not promise to lead His sheep into illusion. He promises to leads His sheep into all truth.

B - I am not going to deny my Lord and His word and the place that He prepares for me. (Nor is there some kind of choice between His Father's house and the Garden - since my Lord is in His Father's house and He is also the Tree of Life in the Garden/Paradise). I am also not going to listen to you (or to anyone else) over Him. That would be disobeying God Himself, who led me to His Son when I asked to know His Truth, and who told me to listen to that Son. And if you are going to "use" (some) of the words Christ spoke, why not listen to all of His words on the matter? If you think He has enough authority to have spoken the truth about the Father's house, then would it not be wise to listen to all His words on the matter, and to follow Him? Instead of quote-mining and adding your own spin (or listening to someone else who has added their own spin)?

What you refer to as 'listening to god himself' is not actually [in truth] what is going on though Tammy.

God did lead me to His Son when I asked (and sought) to know His truth. But (for the most part) God now speaks to us through His Son (the Word of God).

The words, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him", are indeed found in what is written.

Rather, you are listening to the Church mythology to which you have chosen to believe in as "The Word of God" at the expense of other ways of seeing things [through personal experience] by naming those other things, as 'lies'.

None of this is true.

And my personal experience is of my Lord (Christ Jaheshua) being alive, speaking (as He said He would do), teaching and leading His sheep into all truth (as He said He would so), and that His sheep hear/listen to His voice (as He said they would). So the words that He spoke (according to what is written) on these matters have been shown (to me) to be true. His promise at John 14:23 has also proven to be true (to me). I have no reason at all to doubt Him, and I will not.

If you have any further questions about what I mean when I refer to my Lord speaking and His sheep hearing His voice, perhaps the greater explanation in the following link will help:

viewtopic.php?p=738377#p738377

That is hardly a great argument. "I believe in the bible, therefore anything I do not interpret/have interpreted for me as being in the bible, is lies!" Nope - not a great argument Tam...

Nor is it my argument.



Now this is an insanely long post, much longer than I intended when I said I wanted to clarify a few things, lol. But there you go.



Peace still to you William.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #343]


Continued...

viewtopic.php?p=1104063#p1104063

I do not have any religious leaders, dear Clownboat.

He is a leader (the Leader, my Leader, King, Master, Lord). But He is not a part of religion; He did not create a religion; religion does not come from Him.

Jesus ( c. 4 BC – AD 30 or 33), also referred to as Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth (among other names and titles), was a first-century Jewish preacher and religious leader. He is the central figure of Christianity, the world's largest religion.

What makes Jesus different from other religious leaders?
https://www.compellingtruth.org/Jesus-different.html

How is Jesus different from other religious leaders?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-different.html

Faith and religion are not the same thing.

Actually, some Christians do refer to their religion as their faith, but it really matters not here as it is semantics.

You are the one reading more into my words than what I have said.

If only a Christ assisted with those words, or a spirit would have guided them or if they only relayed godly knowledge. Alas...

What you are doing here also makes no sense. Because I am a mother (good or bad) does that mean that my neighbor is a mother (good or bad)?

Nope, where did you pull that one from?

If I am a terrible server (waitress), does that mean all other servers are terrible

Nope.
It's one thing to think so lowly of yourself to claim to be undeserving, but why project that on to others by loving them like you love yourself which would mean they are also undeserving?

- and even if so, does that mean I do not treat them with respect, show them compassion, forgive them, ask forgiveness for them, give to them if in need, etc, etc?

Straw man. Such things of you have never been suggested.

The fact that I acknowledge that am a poor servant and undeserving

You are neither of these things though. This is just your religion/Christ/spirits talking and I already alluded to why religions and cults do this. It would be unkind IMO to project such things on to others. Let's face it, if you think you are undeserving, surely an atheist in your opinion must also be undeserving. I can't get behind such a thing anylonger myself.

does the EXACT opposite of what you imply... it helps me to understand and love others if/when they perform poorly at a task/role - because I know that I would want mercy and forgiveness to be shown to me for my poor service.

Mercy and forgiveness can be shown without thinking you are undeserving! We all make mistakes, once this is understood, undeserving is irrelevant. This is what I mean by being good for goodness sake. Just show mercy and forgiveness Tam. Don't add undeserving to it. That would seem unkind for humans that value other humans for being human..

I thank my dear Lord for reminding me of this just now.

"Be merciful and mercy will be shown you."

Romans 9:15
King James Version
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

"Forgive and you will be forgiven."

Ephesians 1:7
King James Version
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

"Judge not and you will not be judged."

Proverbs 31:9
9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Gotta love the Bible!

You're being unkind IMO and justifying your behavior because of a Bible verse.

I'm sorry, but what behavior are you referring to here?

Treating others like they are undeserving, like you do yourself. Treat humans with respect (until it is lost).

The behavior that I described as an instance when my dear Lord reminded me what love does - when my coworker was so down, but I was tired and did not want to get involved? The love that my dear Lord reminded me of, that would offer help to someone in need? The love (as reminded me by my Lord) that helped that person, kept them from committing self-harm (their words).

I'm glad you did these things, but it does say a lot about yourself if you only did this because a Lord reminded you. These are things we should all do without a Lord reminding us. Perhaps you truly do need a Lord to tell you to do these things? What if you inherently knew you should help your coworker and the voice you heared was just internal, informing you of what you already knew you should be doing?

Is that the behavior that you are referring to?

Nope, I'm referring to the undeserving part.

Set free from religion, the cult that you keep referring to? I don't doubt that you are more loving being set free from that.

Thank you. It is sad that religion can cause kind people to be unkind.

But look at what you said:

You are more Christ-like having been set free from your religious beliefs. How can you say that unless you actually DO know that Christ and religion are not the same thing?

Christ and religion are not identical if that is what you mean, but no one here has argued that they are, so I don't understand your point.

You made that leap, but the negative inferences you have drawn from it have been corrected.

Let's test this shall we?
You say you are undeserving. Tam, is your neighbor undeserving as well?

What is it that you think you are arguing against?

That you are undeserving as you claimed.

The above was not an excuse; I was simply trying to help you consider reasons you may not have heard/listened to Christ.

Christ has never said anything for me to listen to. That is the truth. That you hear a voice is on you. Why you are so cavalier about projecting that on to others? Are you trying to make it seem normal?

Of course, had I told you that you did not hear Him because you were instead listening to and following religion, you would have objected to that as well, yes?

If a voice is spoken, following a religion is not a valid mechanism for preventing from hearing said voice. You could claim rejecting a voice due to having a religious belief, but it is silly to think that religions can stop a voice from being heard.

There is a lot of information for the reader to plow through. A quick glance doesn't show the reader where the verbatim is...I will scan through it all when I have more time to do so, and hopefully will find the conversations you have with the voice you claim, claims to be Christ...

[tam]

[Replying to William in post #345]

William, you do realize that the links in my previous post were with regard to testing your claims against Christ and His Word, right?

Those links were to the following:

If you claimed something you heard came from Christ (or any other spirit, or even just yourself) I would hold that up to Christ and His word as I have done in the past (even on this thread) with regard to your claims about the Father's house, among various other things.

You wish for links to be put in as evidence of the conversation when I am referencing you, and that is what I did.


Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #346]

The main thrust of what I have been asking for from you Tam, are links to the verbatim conversations you have with the voice calling itself "Christ" that you claim to hear.

[tam]

[Replying to William in post #347]

William, I have shared his words (again, not to put my Lord on display as some kind of sideshow, but when appropriate to the discussion at hand), even in the OP of this very thread. I cannot do more than that.


Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #347]

William, I have shared his words (again, not to put my Lord on display as some kind of sideshow, but when appropriate to the discussion at hand), even in the OP of this very thread. I cannot do more than that.


Peace again.

Understood Tam.

Apparently your lord is shy and withdrawn and cannot speak through you without being 'put on show' or some such thing.
I am satisfied therefore, that whatever this voice is you claim to hear, and whatever this voice claims to be, there is nothing of any substance to the claims and your position is no different in that regard than any other bible quoting Christian who believes that how they interpret said book is the correct interpretation and any other way is "not following the Lord"

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #347]

William, I have shared his words (again, not to put my Lord on display as some kind of sideshow, but when appropriate to the discussion at hand), even in the OP of this very thread. I cannot do more than that.


Peace again.

Understood Tam.

Apparently your lord is shy and withdrawn and cannot speak through you without being 'put on show' or some such thing.

Apparently you like to see things through your own interpretations even if someone said nothing of the sort.

Either way, even as a child I never cared about doing something just because my peers 'double dog dared me' to do it.

I am satisfied therefore, that whatever this voice is you claim to hear, and whatever this voice claims to be, there is nothing of any substance to the claims and your position is no different in that regard than any other bible quoting Christian who believes that how they interpret said book is the correct interpretation and any other way is "not following the Lord"

Like I said in the OP:

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."



Peace again.