Zzyzx wrote: ↑
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:27 pm
Just provide verification for your claim that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.”
"at least justified in the story itself" -
Just like how the Quran is used to justify itself. Surely that does not impress you?!?
if you take the Gospels alone, I would say yes. Those things I have already mentioned lend evidential support that what Jesus was to endure was more than an ordinary execution. His sweating drops of blood in the garden showed signs of extreme distress and foreboding. Martyrs in Rome faced similar executions, yet they sang songs of joy waiting to be put to death. Was Jesus, the Son of God, a greater coward than his future followers? That just doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus say "take this cup away from me" if he simply had to die an average ignominious death, then rise again on the third day? IF that were the extent of Jesus sufferings, then I would agree with brunumb that that is not such a great sacrifice on behalf of mankind. But the evidence shows that what Jesus suffered was not ordinary human suffering.
That's just from the religious promotional material and Paul who was inventing a version of a religion for the gentiles. You are of course free to believe the religous promotional material, but would you give the same consideration to religious promotional material from other religions?
Do you believe the religious promotional material in the Quran when it claims that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse? Just checking for consistency.
If you go beyond the Gospels, then of course there is Paul who says Jesus "became sin" and "a curse for us" - strong language that also indicates something spiritually horrific, not merely a physical dying.... I can continue on, but this is a vast subject if you want to research it yourself.
You don't do Jesus any service IMO by bringing up Paul. Jesus would roll in his grave if he knew what Paul did with his (assumed) message. Either way, all you have done is point to what you consider strong language.
Did Jesus lose his soul or his body in hell?
I don't think Jesus necessarily went to hell after he died.
Then you agree with skeptics, atheists and members of all the other religions. Common ground is good.
What is paramount is I think his suffering on the cross, the three hours during which he cried "Father, father why have you forsaken me?" - that is I think when he experienced the real punishment from God.....
We all realize that you think this and you don't seem to appreciate it when it is pointed out that he didn't stay dead.
If Jesus is to be believed, he felt abandoned/deserted. Should I believe you, or the purported words of Jesus in this instance?
Take the idea of theories in science. Whenever we run into evidence that seems to overturn a given theory, we don't automatically throw out the entire theory.
Once decomposing bodies start reanimating, then compare it to science.
What observations can you point to that would suggest, long dead bodies have reanimated?
We try to find some harmonization or justification that preserves the theory and takes into account the evidence in a consistent way. I see myself as doing the same thing here, on behalf of Christianity.
Super! I would like to see the evidence you have that shows decomposing human bodies can reanimate.