Buffet Christianity

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Dimmesdale
Scholar
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 7:19 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Buffet Christianity

Post #101

Post by Dimmesdale »

Zzyzx wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:27 pm
Just provide verification for your claim that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.”
All I want to "prove" is that there are multiple viewpoints within Christianity regarding the Atonement.

Brunumb gave a philosophical objection, that Jesus didn't stay dead.

All I want to point out is that this objection can be answered, because Jesus "dying" need not necessarily be what brunumb had in mind.

You guys may not believe it, and I'm not one to prove it. I'm only saying that there are viewpoints which could "handle" brunumb's objection....

User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 17478
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Contact:

Re: Buffet Christianity

Post #102

Post by otseng »

Dimmesdale wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:07 pm
then you are very, very ignorant.
Moderator Comment

Please do not call another person ignorant.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 7754
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Buffet Christianity

Post #103

Post by Clownboat »

Zzyzx wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:27 pm
Just provide verification for your claim that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.”
All I want to "prove" is that there are multiple viewpoints within Christianity regarding the Atonement.
Is that to say that you can't or wont show that you spoke the truth?
I think readers should know if you imagined Jesus's suffering, or if it is at least justified in the story itself.
Obviously it would take more than a feeling of being forsaken.

Perhaps Jesus said what it is claimed he said and that he did feel abandoned/deserted.

for·sak·en
adjective
abandoned or deserted.
Brunumb gave a philosophical objection, that Jesus didn't stay dead.

All I want to point out is that this objection can be answered, because Jesus "dying" need not necessarily be what brunumb had in mind.

Matthew 10:28 ESV
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Did Jesus lose his soul or his body in hell?
You guys may not believe it, and I'm not one to prove it. I'm only saying that there are viewpoints which could "handle" brunumb's objection....
Why imagine such things? Seems like how we got all the gods in the first place.
You can build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, or you can set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible being’s wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

Dimmesdale
Scholar
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 7:19 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Buffet Christianity

Post #104

Post by Dimmesdale »

Clownboat wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:29 am
Zzyzx wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:27 pm
Just provide verification for your claim that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.”
All I want to "prove" is that there are multiple viewpoints within Christianity regarding the Atonement.
Is that to say that you can't or wont show that you spoke the truth?
I think readers should know if you imagined Jesus's suffering, or if it is at least justified in the story itself.
Obviously it would take more than a feeling of being forsaken.

Perhaps Jesus said what it is claimed he said and that he did feel abandoned/deserted.

for·sak·en
adjective
abandoned or deserted.
"at least justified in the story itself" - if you take the Gospels alone, I would say yes. Those things I have already mentioned lend evidential support that what Jesus was to endure was more than an ordinary execution. His sweating drops of blood in the garden showed signs of extreme distress and foreboding. Martyrs in Rome faced similar executions, yet they sang songs of joy waiting to be put to death. Was Jesus, the Son of God, a greater coward than his future followers? That just doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus say "take this cup away from me" if he simply had to die an average ignominious death, then rise again on the third day? IF that were the extent of Jesus sufferings, then I would agree with brunumb that that is not such a great sacrifice on behalf of mankind. But the evidence shows that what Jesus suffered was not ordinary human suffering.

If you go beyond the Gospels, then of course there is Paul who says Jesus "became sin" and "a curse for us" - strong language that also indicates something spiritually horrific, not merely a physical dying.... I can continue on, but this is a vast subject if you want to research it yourself.


Clownboat wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:29 am
Brunumb gave a philosophical objection, that Jesus didn't stay dead.

All I want to point out is that this objection can be answered, because Jesus "dying" need not necessarily be what brunumb had in mind.


Matthew 10:28 ESV
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Did Jesus lose his soul or his body in hell?
I don't think Jesus necessarily went to hell after he died. He "descended into the heart of the earth" or something to that effect, (possibly poetic language), meaning he stayed dead for three days. What is paramount is I think his suffering on the cross, the three hours during which he cried "Father, father why have you forsaken me?" - that is I think when he experienced the real punishment from God.....

You guys may not believe it, and I'm not one to prove it. I'm only saying that there are viewpoints which could "handle" brunumb's objection....
Why imagine such things? Seems like how we got all the gods in the first place.
[/quote]

I'm not imagining anything, I'm just offering the answers which Christianity purports to give. Answers which give a philosophical satisfaction to inquirers' questions....

Take the idea of theories in science. Whenever we run into evidence that seems to overturn a given theory, we don't automatically throw out the entire theory. We try to find some harmonization or justification that preserves the theory and takes into account the evidence in a consistent way. I see myself as doing the same thing here, on behalf of Christianity.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 7754
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Buffet Christianity

Post #105

Post by Clownboat »

Zzyzx wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:27 pm
Just provide verification for your claim that “Jesus suffered unimaginably worse than anyone ever has or will.”
"at least justified in the story itself" -
Just like how the Quran is used to justify itself. Surely that does not impress you?!?

if you take the Gospels alone, I would say yes. Those things I have already mentioned lend evidential support that what Jesus was to endure was more than an ordinary execution. His sweating drops of blood in the garden showed signs of extreme distress and foreboding. Martyrs in Rome faced similar executions, yet they sang songs of joy waiting to be put to death. Was Jesus, the Son of God, a greater coward than his future followers? That just doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus say "take this cup away from me" if he simply had to die an average ignominious death, then rise again on the third day? IF that were the extent of Jesus sufferings, then I would agree with brunumb that that is not such a great sacrifice on behalf of mankind. But the evidence shows that what Jesus suffered was not ordinary human suffering.
That's just from the religious promotional material and Paul who was inventing a version of a religion for the gentiles. You are of course free to believe the religous promotional material, but would you give the same consideration to religious promotional material from other religions?

Do you believe the religious promotional material in the Quran when it claims that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse? Just checking for consistency.
If you go beyond the Gospels, then of course there is Paul who says Jesus "became sin" and "a curse for us" - strong language that also indicates something spiritually horrific, not merely a physical dying.... I can continue on, but this is a vast subject if you want to research it yourself.
You don't do Jesus any service IMO by bringing up Paul. Jesus would roll in his grave if he knew what Paul did with his (assumed) message. Either way, all you have done is point to what you consider strong language.
Did Jesus lose his soul or his body in hell?
I don't think Jesus necessarily went to hell after he died.

Then you agree with skeptics, atheists and members of all the other religions. Common ground is good.
What is paramount is I think his suffering on the cross, the three hours during which he cried "Father, father why have you forsaken me?" - that is I think when he experienced the real punishment from God.....
We all realize that you think this and you don't seem to appreciate it when it is pointed out that he didn't stay dead.
If Jesus is to be believed, he felt abandoned/deserted. Should I believe you, or the purported words of Jesus in this instance?
Take the idea of theories in science. Whenever we run into evidence that seems to overturn a given theory, we don't automatically throw out the entire theory.
Once decomposing bodies start reanimating, then compare it to science.
What observations can you point to that would suggest, long dead bodies have reanimated?
We try to find some harmonization or justification that preserves the theory and takes into account the evidence in a consistent way. I see myself as doing the same thing here, on behalf of Christianity.
Super! I would like to see the evidence you have that shows decomposing human bodies can reanimate.
You can build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, or you can set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible being’s wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

tonjun
Student
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:37 pm
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Buffet Christianity

Post #106

Post by tonjun »

Dimmesdale wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:18 pm
brunumb wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:55 pm
But we don't really have any Christian "truth". We have an ancient book of unverified claims accepted as truth on nothing more than faith. Dismissing all other "truth" as being up for grabs is really rather naive. You should trust science as far as it is demonstrably reliable. If you believe that the sun is not hot the flaw does not lie in the science.
Yeah, that just shows how little you've read regarding Christian history. Christianity IS NOT "2000 years making it up as you go along." That is inaccurate. There is tremendous consistency regarding many doctrines of the Church that have remained unaltered virtually since the beginning, and find their logical source in terms of the Bible....

This is not to say that all denominations agree. They don't. But to say that there is no unity at all is to be, well, tremendously ignorant of things like scripture and the history of Western thought in general. There are heresies nowadays that Protestants, (at least mainline Protestants), Catholics and Orthodox, would all unanimously condemn.

Of course, there are groups at the fringe of Christianity. Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses come to mind. But they are not mainstream. When it comes to the basic, foundational doctrines, there is a great deal of consistency.
I think you are ignorant to the fact your own sect of Bible had grave defects that needed to be repaired. I will quote a snippet from the preface found on the KJV Bible of 1971.
Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation.
Your Bible had such serious defects it called for a major revision.

Looks like no unity regarding the Bible was apparent as you falsely claim otherwise. That is true ignorance.

I recall seeing a similar page like this with my own eyes from the KJV Bible: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CFYO_rDarLQ/ ... reface.jpg

And the link with the complete preface: http://www.bible-researcher.com/rsvpreface.html
Last edited by tonjun on Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tonjun
Student
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:37 pm
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Buffet Christianity

Post #107

Post by tonjun »

Dimmesdale wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:57 am
Clownboat wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:29 am
Brunumb gave a philosophical objection, that Jesus didn't stay dead.

All I want to point out is that this objection can be answered, because Jesus "dying" need not necessarily be what brunumb had in mind.


Matthew 10:28 ESV
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Did Jesus lose his soul or his body in hell?
I don't think Jesus necessarily went to hell after he died. He "descended into the heart of the earth" or something to that effect, (possibly poetic language), meaning he stayed dead for three days. What is paramount is I think his suffering on the cross, the three hours during which he cried "Father, father why have you forsaken me?" - that is I think when he experienced the real punishment from God.....

Your speculation of thinking of what happened to Jesus doesn't prove nor confirm anything.

Compare this to what you posted in #83:

Dimmesdale wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:51 pm
brunumb wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:22 pm
Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. It may not seem fair, but that is just life. The justice that seems to be offered by Christianity is no more than smoke and mirrors. It might comfort some to believe that they can have their transgressions wiped away, or that bad people will get their comeuppance when they die, but in reality that is just wishful thinking at work.
How do you know it's wishful thinking? How do you know its "smoke and mirrors?" Isn't that simply your opinion? Why should I believe your speculations?

Here you call out brunumb for speculation, yet you do the same thing here yourself.

Doing the good ol' buffet action here?

Post Reply