Are the Caesars the true saviors of Israel?

[Willum]

Isaiah 9: 6-7 seems to describe Augustus:

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on Davids throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.


This seems to exactly describe Caesar Augustus, as the adoptive son of Caesar.
Augustus always complained about the burden of government on his shoulders.
He never wanted to be considered anything more than a counselor. He was made a mighty god, and "everlasting father," and "prince of peace," have certainly become true with the rule of Roman law, we still use, and the Pax Romana, 1000 years of peace, impossible without him.
He reigned on David's throne "Palestine is my footstool."
And the zeal of Yaweh, spelled Iove seems to enforce this.


While Isaiah 53 seems to describe Tiberius Caesar, exactly:

53 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
2
For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3
He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering,and acquainted with disease.
He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didnt respect him.

4
Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.
6
All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didnt open his mouth.
As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he didnt open his mouth.
8
He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people?
9
They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10
Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.
He has caused him to suffer.
When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring.
He will prolong his days, and Yahwehs pleasure will prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied.
My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore will I give him a portion with the great, and he will divide the plunder with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

These seems to describe Caesar Tiberius, afflicted in the face as he was, exiled as he was, as reviled as he was, passiveness of being led off to Rhodes, his royal whining, and the slaughter that occurred after his death.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 7 by Willum]

[Replying to benchwrmer]

As to catholics not worshiping angels: From an outsider's perspective, Catholics worship saints and angels. From their own perspective they can call it what they want.

As an ex Roman Catholic, I don't really have a dog in the fight anymore, but I don't like to see false accusations either.

If you define worship to mean asking saints for intercession (i.e. to interceded on your behalf to God), then I guess you think Catholics worship their friends as well because they ask their friends to pray for them as well. Catholics do not pray to saints, they ask saints to pray for them.

Granted if you see someone apparently talking out loud to some invisible entity it all looks the same. However, the intent is not to treat saints or angels as if they are gods.

Is it all hogwash? Probably, but I think it's only fair and civil to use the proper terms when painting with a broad brush and suggesting an entire group does something.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 10 by JehovahsWitness]

Eyebrows raised.
I would say, with the inbreeding and such of royal families, that would make it extremely probable. Especially as one house rises and another falls, through history, some houses may have even been vilified, with their victors denying the losers relation to David, and then, they move on. So again, unless you can come up with proof one way or the other - it is a wash on both sides, neither contributing nor dissuading the argument.

And in the spirit of debate - "extremely improbable," is a point you should award me - because, for example, it is extremely impossible for someone to say, prophesize or come back from the dead. Indeed, if God wants it to be so, a little thing like a lost bloodline is very reasonable, indeed if God is involved, it becomes very likely.

Still leaving us with the problem of why the Caesars fit Isaiah so well. Those probabilities, of not one but two Emperors having some many unique traits that fit the prophesies so well, without fail, is astounding.

Like Pazuzu said - it certainly seems so.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 12 by Willum]

Okay, well just get back to me when you have any actual, verifiable evidence whatsoever and until then we'll have to agree to disagree that your claim is wild supposition.

Have a good one, peace out,


JW

[Zzyzx]

.

Okay, well just get back to me when you have any actual, verifiable evidence whatsoever and until then we'll have to agree to disagree that your claim is wild supposition.

Likewise, until there is actual, verifiable evidence that "gods" influence human lives (or "afterlives") any such claims are wild supposition / speculation.

Religionists, however, seem to think that their speculations represent TRUTH -- even though actual, verifiable evidence is lacking.

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

This is such a strange comment coming from a believer. I watch folks go back and forth on these prophesies discussing what they might mean and why they don't seem to all apply to Jesus, and why the messiah might be still to come because of these.

Now, when confronted with a 100% match, a miracle! requiring very little if any interpretation, you'll use "you can't prove there isn't," as a reason not to believe!

This should be a reason to investigate! Maybe there are further Bible mysteries to be solved! Explanations the prophesies being fulfilled by Caesar explain!

This is proof people advocating the Bible have been looking for since it was penned! The actual fulfillment of the prophesies of Isaiah!

But the objection is because of WHO fulfilled them? The purpose of the savior was that EVERYONE, not just the peoples of Israel could be saved! Doesn't that mean the world could be saved?

And doesn't that mean those representing the entire world, the Caesars, at the time, would be God's logical choice as representative of the world?

Bottom line, Christians believe Isaiah, you believe prophesy, there are an infinite many things like that to object to that can not be proven EITHER way - like lineage (Augustus grandmother was a Jewess,) yet you chose to object to it based on something that can't be proven either way? Why not accept the proof and the miracle?

How is fulfillment of prophesy, and so with so many constraints, not proof in the highest, even scientific sense of the word?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 11 by benchwarmer]

Perhaps, but when one religions angels are more powerful than other religions gods... and what about the difference between the chief god and servitors. What about praying to divine creatures (of other myths) that aren't gods?

I am afraid the discussion is too muddy. What if we were Chinese, for example, and I told you Catholic worshiped one all-powerful spirit, and 12 lesser spirits? There is no amenable way to discuss the "wiggle room." Interpretation in this case is reality, and no way to resolve it that I see.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 16 by Willum]

Hi Willum, I appreciate there is confusion. I was simply trying to bring some clarity. If someone said all atheists did X, when in fact they didn't I would think atheists or anyone familiar with them would want to clarify the situation. Non-atheists might argue it looks like they do X.

What if we were Chinese, for example, and I told you Catholic worshiped one all-powerful spirit, and 12 lesser spirits?

Well, if we were Chinese (not sure what ethnicity has to do with it) and I didn't know anything about Catholic worship I would either a) believe you, or b) look it up myself and figure out what you mean. Either way, you would be wrong. Catholics only worship one 'spirit' i.e. God and ask many (many, many) 'spirits' as well as the living to intercede and pray for them. There is a saint for just about any occasion who seems to have extra 'fire power' for a given circumstance. Lost your keys? Saint Anthony. Taking a test? Saint Joseph of Cupertino. etc.

I think a better way to put it would be Catholics talk to many spirits. If you want to attack their worship practice, attack the Trinity. That could be seen as worshiping more than one God and I'll grant you that one.

[Willum]

[Replying to benchwarmer]

No, no intent to attack the Catholic at all. Just to use them as an obvious example: others don't see what we do the way we do ourselves.

Anyway,
Are the Caesars the true saviors of Israel?

[tam]

Peace to you!

Okay, Willum, you have said that there is a 100% match?

Isaiah 9: 6-7 seems to describe Augustus:

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on Davids throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.


This seems to exactly describe Caesar Augustus, as the adoptive son of Caesar.
Augustus always complained about the burden of government on his shoulders.
He never wanted to be considered anything more than a counselor. He was made a mighty god, and "everlasting father," and "prince of peace," have certainly become true with the rule of Roman law, we still use, and the Pax Romana, 1000 years of peace, impossible without him.
He reigned on David's throne "Palestine is my footstool."
And the zeal of Yaweh, spelled Iove seems to enforce this.

A couple questions then:

What thousand years of peace did any Caesar bring in?
The quote actually mentions unending peace, not just a thousand years of peace, so what unending peace did any Caesar bring in?

While Isaiah 53 seems to describe Tiberius Caesar, exactly:

53 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
2
For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3
He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering,and acquainted with disease.
He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didnt respect him.

4
Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.
6
All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didnt open his mouth.
As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he didnt open his mouth.
8
He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people?
9
They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10
Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.
He has caused him to suffer.
When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring.
He will prolong his days, and Yahwehs pleasure will prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied.
My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore will I give him a portion with the great, and he will divide the plunder with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

These seems to describe Caesar Tiberius, afflicted in the face as he was, exiled as he was, as reviled as he was, passiveness of being led off to Rhodes, his royal whining, and the slaughter that occurred after his death.

A couple questions here as well:

When did Tiberius Caesar bear the iniquities, the suffering, the sickness of the people and when did his wounds heal them?

How was he an offering for sin?

He killed people, both in war and in executing those he accused of treason as well. So how is that a man who could be said to have done no violence?

How does he justify many by the knowledge of himself?



How is any Caesar a savior of Israel?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Willum]

[Replying to tam]

Yes, a 100% match.

I already answered the first stanza - Prince of Peace is what is claimed, not everlasting.

Tiberius -
Much of what is there seems to mirror much of what was said about his personal labours, as leader of the world, he wasn't treated very fairly.
He fought as a warrior. and on the battlefield suffered so others wouldn't have to.

The 'no violence' would refer to when he did no violence - as a warrior obviously not, as a ruler, beneficence.

But the prophesy does, I admit, ignore the bad. But then again, why wouldn't it?

How did they save Israel?
They brought it peace, they brought it fresh water, food in winter, an infrastructure lasting until this day.

Whereas, Elohim, brought, nothing you can demonstrate.