Are the Caesars the true saviors of Israel?

[Willum]

Isaiah 9: 6-7 seems to describe Augustus:

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on Davids throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.


This seems to exactly describe Caesar Augustus, as the adoptive son of Caesar.
Augustus always complained about the burden of government on his shoulders.
He never wanted to be considered anything more than a counselor. He was made a mighty god, and "everlasting father," and "prince of peace," have certainly become true with the rule of Roman law, we still use, and the Pax Romana, 1000 years of peace, impossible without him.
He reigned on David's throne "Palestine is my footstool."
And the zeal of Yaweh, spelled Iove seems to enforce this.


While Isaiah 53 seems to describe Tiberius Caesar, exactly:

53 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
2
For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3
He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering,and acquainted with disease.
He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didnt respect him.

4
Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.
6
All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didnt open his mouth.
As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he didnt open his mouth.
8
He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people?
9
They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10
Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.
He has caused him to suffer.
When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring.
He will prolong his days, and Yahwehs pleasure will prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied.
My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore will I give him a portion with the great, and he will divide the plunder with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

These seems to describe Caesar Tiberius, afflicted in the face as he was, exiled as he was, as reviled as he was, passiveness of being led off to Rhodes, his royal whining, and the slaughter that occurred after his death.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 40 by tam]

The questions in post 19 were answered in post 20:

When did Tiberius Caesar bear the iniquities, the suffering, the sickness of the people and when did his wounds heal them?

Tiberius bore many inequities before being made Caesar. He suffered life-long disease, and his suffering for the people is simply how much he felt for them during famine and drought, etc..

How was he an offering for sin?

His exile or other events in his life were viewed by him, and anyone he could have killed or imprisoned, as paying for his father Augustus's daughter's sin.

He killed people, both in war and in executing those he accused of treason as well. So how is that a man who could be said to have done no violence?

The question is "when," he did no violence. There were times he did no violence, remember these are written in prose.

How does he justify many by the knowledge of himself?

By being the ruler of the Roman world.

How is any Caesar a savior of Israel?

By bringing it food in winter, sanitation, and peace.

Indeed, if the Jews had just followed Roman law - coincidently the same as Jesus' law on the same subjects, the Diaspora would not have occurred.

[tam]

[Replying to post 41 by Willum]

Peace to you Willum,

Post 20 responds to post 19 (sort of), but it does not answer the questions I asked; it does not even address all the questions I asked. Even you admit that there is stuff that does not match up; but that this 'bad stuff' just has to be ignored. You cannot say that and at the same time say that it is a 100% match.


So I am currently asking rik how he would respond to those questions that I asked, since he wrote that he cannot honestly rule out that Isaiah is describing the caesars.




Peace again to you!

[Willum]

[Replying to post 42 by tam]

So now post 41 answers all the questions you had, specifically.

Why do the Caesars fit the prophesy of Isaiah better than Jesus does?

That is a question that needs answering.

Because if they fit better, than Jesus is not the Messiah.

[showme]

Isaiah 9: 6-7 seems to describe Augustus:

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on Davids throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.


This seems to exactly describe Caesar Augustus, as the adoptive son of Caesar.
Augustus always complained about the burden of government on his shoulders.
He never wanted to be considered anything more than a counselor. He was made a mighty god, and "everlasting father," and "prince of peace," have certainly become true with the rule of Roman law, we still use, and the Pax Romana, 1000 years of peace, impossible without him.
He reigned on David's throne "Palestine is my footstool."
And the zeal of Yaweh, spelled Iove seems to enforce this.


While Isaiah 53 seems to describe Tiberius Caesar, exactly:

53 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
2
For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3
He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering,and acquainted with disease.
He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didnt respect him.

4
Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.
6
All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didnt open his mouth.
As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he didnt open his mouth.
8
He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people?
9
They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10
Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.
He has caused him to suffer.
When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring.
He will prolong his days, and Yahwehs pleasure will prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied.
My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore will I give him a portion with the great, and he will divide the plunder with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

These seems to describe Caesar Tiberius, afflicted in the face as he was, exiled as he was, as reviled as he was, passiveness of being led off to Rhodes, his royal whining, and the slaughter that occurred after his death.

Octavius, the "healed" (Revelation 13:3) 5th head of the beast, the slain Julius Caesar, apparently didn't come across as a "prince of peace" to those 2 years or younger in Bethlehem, who were killed during his reign. Peace to some, is death to others.