Can we find good in God?

[marco]

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger. He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 9 by 1213]

But freedom in ignorance is not freedom, it is someone releasing a blind animal into the wild.

Free to step over a cliff, or be eaten by a snake.

Freedom would be their understanding of what the apple would do... what the serpent was, what it means.

If they had had freedom, they would have understood their choices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_a6RjR_AHY

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

They are in fact more abundant than the uglier passages. And since the even the uglier passages are in the context of a greater good, the ultimate evaluation of the O.T. comes down to an evaluation of a classic ethic: does the end justify the means?

Restoring the world to Eden is the dominant theme of the O.T.

The covenant with ABraham is "In your seed all the peoples of the world will be blessed".

There is, obviously, the other side of the coin: those that curse you (i.e., those that oppose you) will be cursed (i.e. opposed).

That is the thesis of the O.T.

There is not a single example in the O.T. of a person willingly acknowledging Yahweh as God and obeying him and yet being cursed. Even in the Conquest, we have Rahab.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 12 by liamconnor]

There is not a single example in the O.T. of a person willingly acknowledging Yahweh as God and obeying him and yet being cursed. Even in the Conquest, we have Rahab.

Exodus 4, where God tries to kill Moses, after Moses has acknowledged Yahweh as God and is doing as Yahweh commands?

[marco]

Does it strictly have to come from the OT?

If not, how about when God/Jesus changed their mind in this instance:

Almost his entire biography comes from the OT, so it would be interesting and more relevant to find some good there.

Jesus wasn't partial to pigs. I believe he was sued by the owner of the Gadarene swine for wilful destruction. I don't know how the case went. But what Jesus did, bad or good, is irrelevant.

[marco]

He gave us freedom and possibility to reject Him. And even when people have rejected God and made many evil things, He allows us to have many good things.

Chance would also supply this. I wanted unambiguous benefits. These are deductions about what God may or may not have supplied. However, I respect your integrity and it is good to see in life what gifts we have. My sainted mother would agree with you.

Your quote from Matthew doesn't qualify - I accept Jesus did teach kindness.

[marco]

They are in fact more abundant than the uglier passages.

Were this so I would not have asked for unambiguous examples of God's demonstrated goodness in the OT.

Restoring the world to Eden is the dominant theme of the O.T.

We're not after themes but examples from the text of kindness. Destroying Eden is not an act of kindness. Do you see a restored Eden? Metaphors are ambiguous.

The covenant with Abraham is "In your seed all the peoples of the world will be blessed".

Bad example. One of his most notorious pieces of wickedness was to demand Abraham murder his son. Making a bargain with him is hardly kind, given the terms.

There is, obviously, the other side of the coin: those that curse you (i.e., those that oppose you) will be cursed (i.e. opposed).

We haven't seen the good side. We know there are threats: look the wrong way and you are dead! One must conclude we have found no acts that unmistakeably demonstrate a kind and loving God. Thanks for attempting the task.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 12 by liamconnor]

So, brother liam, having freewill, and observing God's behavior - which is to everyone's immediate sensibilities, worrying, if not immoral - why would you still choose to revere him?

It seems to me I would rather suffer in Hell with Gandhi, then party in Heaven with redeemed Hitler.

[benchwarmer]

There is not a single example in the O.T. of a person willingly acknowledging Yahweh as God and obeying him and yet being cursed. Even in the Conquest, we have Rahab.

I guess that depends on how you define 'cursed'. Just look at poor Job. God allowed his family to be killed. Sounds like a curse to me. I know, I know, God gives him another family after as consolation and 'blesses' him with more.

How would you feel if your children were killed and then later replaced with others? Would you simply forget that your original family was killed just so God could 'show you off' to Satan? Would you not be haunted for the rest of your life over the waste of life and unrealized dreams of your children that were killed?

Kill all my sheep and give me many more later is fine. Kill all my oxen and give me many more later is fine. Take all my possessions and give me more later is fine.

Kill my family and attempt to replace them? NOT FINE! That would be a curse, not a blessing. Unless you think of your own children as simply property than can be replaced with new ones.

I've always found this tale ludicrous and showing the true nature of this OT god character. Essentially we are pawns in a game to be sacrificed if needed to make some ridiculous point.

[Divine Insight]

There is, obviously, the other side of the coin: those that curse you (i.e., those that oppose you) will be cursed (i.e. opposed).

To begin with we haven't actually seen this happen. So it's an empty promise.

Also, I would much rather have a creator who simply protects me from being cursed or opposed rather than to have one who allows me to be cursed and opposed only to do the same to the one who has cursed me.

What value is it to me that this other person has been cursed after they have already inflicted damage on me?

Vengeance does nothing for me. So the idea that a God would take vengeance against those who have harmed me is hardly satisfying to me.

A truly decent and omnipotent God would simply protect me from being harmed in the first place.

Show me a God like that and I'll be impressed.

[marco]

Kill my family and attempt to replace them? NOT FINE! That would be a curse, not a blessing. Unless you think of your own children as simply property than can be replaced with new ones.

I've always found this tale ludicrous and showing the true nature of this OT god character. Essentially we are pawns in a game to be sacrificed if needed to make some ridiculous point.

Well thankfully we are not pawns since Yahweh and his wickedness are the stuff of Hamlet and Iago. Of course it is ludicrous for Job to be compensated with a whole new set of clean, happy kids. You are right that we are meant by the authors to understand that children are ours to dispose of; we can take them to the good men of the town to be stoned, if they misbehave. Or we can go on a pleasant journey up a hill and tie them down as we prepare to murder them. All in God's name.


I shall be amazed if we find anyone presenting acts of kindness done by Yahweh that don't have some nasty catch attached to them. Yet we can look at human beings and find many beautiful acts of pure goodness. But we are the sinners!