What's the Point of Prayer?

[POI]

In regards to the following verses -- Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23....

What do they really mean? I've debated many theists, and get a whole mess of conflicting answers. It will likely be no surprise if that continues here. After some thought, here are some findings...

1. All prayer is pointless, as any "answered prayer" would merely mean, <at best>, that it already aligned with God's will. Why? Because you cannot make God change His will. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

2. Ignore the above! God answers all prayer with a (yes, no, or later). His answer, of course, would be "no" if you are asking God to commit a 'sin.' But if this option is the case, I guess he will always say no to the requests of restoring lost limbs, reversing cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Why? Because they will die with these conditions, which means they remained unfulfilled until natural death. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above, as there really exists no such caveats....?

3. Ignore choices 1. and 2.! Prayer is only meant for giving thanks, other. God is not a slot machine! But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

I'm sure there exists a plethora of other explanations........ You get the gist....

For Debate:

What is the point of prayer? I guess we can start here, and see where this goes....

[1213]

Does this mean we are to ignore the Verses listed in the OP (Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23)?

No.

Wait a minute! Can your prayer infringe upon God's will, or not? If not, as you alluded to above, then this request will only be issued if it ALREADY aligns with God's will. If you can ask God for things, for which did not already align with God's will, then where do we draw the line exactly? Again, what about the Verses I listed in the OP (Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23)?

I don't think prayer infringe God's will. And what about these verses you listed? I think they are good and correct.

Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you.
Matthew 7:7
Therefore I tell you, all things whatever you pray and ask for, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.
Mark 11:24 (Matthew 21:22)
Whatever you will ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you will ask anything in my name, I will do it.
John 14:13-14
In that day you will ask me no questions. Most assuredly I tell you, whatever you may ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you.
John 16:23

The point of prayer is to ask God for forgiveness?

That can be one of the points of prayer.

Does God intervene, or not? If not, then prayer is worthless.

I don't think praying is worthless, even if God would not do exactly what someone asks. And I believe God can intervene.

[1213]

...Christians do not, ask for anything because they know that prayers are not answered - ...

That is not true. I have asked for example wisdom to understand Bible, because of the example of Solomon and this:

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

I hate to say this, but I think you should get in touch with the celestial complaints dept. and demand a refund.

Why?

[TRANSPONDER]

...Christians do not, ask for anything because they know that prayers are not answered - ...

That is not true. I have asked for example wisdom to understand Bible, because of the example of Solomon and this:

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

I hate to say this, but I think you should get in touch with the celestial complaints dept. and demand a refund.

Why?

Because, dear old pal, and you are our dear old pal, I think that you, like many Christians, do not understand the Bible at all well. What you do - I think - is have Faith that God is answering your prayer (as you claimed) to download understanding into your head. But from where I and standing, you don't understand it and few Christians do; they don't need to. All they need do is wave doubts and questions away with the stock excuses and, if need be, a Bible passage with a barely relevant keyword, though the quote you did above was well chosen.

But I see the problems aren't resolved but dismissed. This is not understanding the Bible, but using the methods of faithbased denial, so if Understanding had been promised, you should have you money back. If there were a heavenly refund dept, which of course there isn't.

"My son, the church takes gold in, it does not hand it out." ('Allo Allo episode)

And thanks friends for the likes - I had to mention it having reached 1666 - the date of the Great Fire of London and the plague, showing what God thought about Charles II and Nell Gwynn.

[Miles]

And not a single "Thank you." Interesting.

DOES THE BIBLE FAIL TO ENCOURAGE THANKING GOD ?

It does not, but does this excuse the lack of a "Thank you" in the Lord's Prayer? I would think not, and, in fact, being "a central Christian prayer which Jesus taught as the way to pray,"* I would think it to be obligatory. But then what do I, an atheist, know what Christians should be expected to do. It just seems reasonable and mannerly to do so considering all that their god has supposedly done for them. . . . But on second thought, maybe it's because Christians have considered what god has done to them that they don't feel he's deserving of any thanks.

Now that seems reasonable.


* source:Wikipedia

.

[Miles]

So, we have:

3 wishes
1 instruction
4 requests
3 reminders

Jesus was encouraging his followers to address God as children would their father. What father would not be happy if his child shared its desires and requests with him all the while being mindful of the father's standards (instructions and reminders)?

Sorry, but it implies no such thing. In Matthew 6 everything Jesus says is man to man, with absolutely nothing suggesting that when they pray they do so as children to their father. Children don't address their parents with

..... 3 wishes, 1 instruction, 4 requests, and 3 reminders.

and to think so is a wee bit bizarre, don't you think.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

In Matthew 6 everything Jesus says is man to man, with absolutely nothing suggesting that when they pray they do so as children to their father.

• Matthew 6 verse 4 : Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.

• Matthew 6 verse 6 : pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.

• Matthew 6 verse 8 : your Father knows what you need even before you ask him.

• Matthew 6 verse 9 : "You must pray, then, this way: "Our Father in the heavens,

• Matthew 6 verse 14 & 15 : if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; whereas if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

• Matthew 6 verse 18 : some that you may not appear to be fasting to men but only to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.

• Matthew 6 verse 26 : your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth more than they are?

• Matthew 6 verse 32 : Your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

RELATED POSTS

What kind of things is it appropriate to pray about?
viewtopic.php?p=1094791#p1094791

Why did Jesus fall to his knees in the Garden of Gethsemene when praying?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p800339

For more, please go to other posts related to...

PRAYER, GOD, and ....WORSHIP

[brunumb]

I don't think praying is worthless, even if God would not do exactly what someone asks. And I believe God can intervene.

What you continually fail to realise is that what you believe is irrelevant. What you can demonstrate to be true is what counts.

[POI]

We are already on confusing ground. Can any prayer change God's will, or not? It's an actual dichotomy.

No.

Okay, can you ask God to give you anything He was not ALREADY planning on giving you (yes or no)?

If yes, then you have changed His will -- (which then means God's will is not set)
If No, then prayer is pointless -- (because you cannot ask God to do something to go against God's will)

I don't think prayer infringe God's will. And what about these verses you listed? I think they are good and correct.

Well, you HAVE to pick one... Either you can change His will, or you cannot. Either way, you are in a bind.

If yes, you have asked Him to change His will, which is contradictory to the statement "God's will"
If no, then your prayer is nothing more than speaking to the wall.

If yes, why does He perpetually ignore prayer requests to restore/reverse/cure amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome?

I don't think praying is worthless, even if God would not do exactly what someone asks. And I believe God can intervene.

Where does He intervene? How do you know? Why skip amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome?

[Miles]

In Matthew 6 everything Jesus says is man to man, with absolutely nothing suggesting that when they pray they do so as children to their father.

• Matthew 6 verse 4 : Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.

• Matthew 6 verse 6 : pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.

• Matthew 6 verse 8 : your Father knows what you need even before you ask him.

• Matthew 6 verse 9 : "You must pray, then, this way: "Our Father in the heavens,

• Matthew 6 verse 14 & 15 : if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; whereas if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

• Matthew 6 verse 18 : some that you may not appear to be fasting to men but only to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.

• Matthew 6 verse 26 : your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth more than they are?

• Matthew 6 verse 32 : Your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

Yup, father, not Father

.

[1213]

...
Okay, can you ask God to give you anything He was not ALREADY planning on giving you (yes or no)?

If yes, then you have changed His will -- (which then means God's will is not set)
...

Unless God has decided that He gives it, if asked.