You Are No Longer You!

[POI]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).
2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

Which begs a follow up question....

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[POI]

You seem to agree that a person can stop excessive drinking and still by himself.

Can he stop a second self-destructive habit and still be himself? Can he, for instance, also stop smoking without someone saying, “You are no longer you”?

I think this question strikes right to the heart of the issue, because it would, to me, depend on how the change occurred. If this guy, whose life revolves around smoking, is dragged kicking and screaming into some box where he's hit with a laser beam, and he comes out and just dumps all his cigarettes and paraphernalia in the trash, smiling, and saying, "I don't want to do that anymore, what a nasty habit." then yes, absolutely, I might question whether he was still him.

And this also approaches the answer as to why not everyone can go to Heaven.

I think your emphasis is placed in the wrong direction. I get what you are saying, and agree. If you actively choose to rebel, then don't go. But many want to, and I'm willing to bet God will not select all the wanting and willful.?.?.?.? But, the objective of the OP is as follows....

According to the Bible, Heaven is a place without sin, and nothing but bliss. According to the Bible, if you are not Jesus, you will be a sinner until you die. Whether you opt to follow Christ, or not, you remain a sinner anyways. Something has to change, likely outside your control. Furthermore, unless you have a brain tumor/car accident/other, you will continue to possess empathy for the unchosen loved ones who will burn in hell forever.

So, what IS this change? Does God transform you to now be suitable for this new space? Or, does this space maybe have applied filters in place, so your continued sin and mourning are instead always blocked? I know it looks like I'm presenting a false dichotomy, and maybe I am...? So let me place it into a scenario, which does not bring to question fallacious reasoning...

1). After you die, God transforms you to make you suitable for a perfect place
2). After you die, God (does not) transform you to make you suitable for a perfect place???

If it is option 1), why not just allow all the willing?
If it is option 2), why not just allow all the willing?

[JehovahsWitness]

According to the Bible, Heaven is a place without sin, and nothing but bliss.

That is simply not true.

JOB 1 :6 , 7

Now the day came when the sons of the true God*+ entered to take their station before Jehovah,+ and Satan+ also entered among them. Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.

Heaven is and will always remain a place where individuals can choose to do good or bad.




JW

[POI]

According to the Bible, Heaven is a place without sin, and nothing but bliss.

Thatnis simply not true.

JOB 1 :6 , 7

Now the day came when the sons of the true God*+ entered to take their station before Jehovah,+ and Satan+ also entered among them. Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.

Yes it is true. You will no longer sin, and you will no longer mourn.

Rev. 21:4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes it is true. You will no longer sin, and you will no longer mourn.

Rev. 21:4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

What makes you think that passage is referring to heaven? Biblically death is not a feature of heaven, so if it is speaking about a cessession of death it must be referring to where death is indemic, namely on earth. You will never be able to prove from the bible that heaven is a place where nobody can sin.

JOB 1 :6 , 7

Now the day came when the sons of the true God*+ entered to take their station before Jehovah,+ and Satan+ also entered among them. Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.

JW

[POI]

you will never be able to prove from the bible that heaven is a place where nobody can sin.

I'll do you one better. I will never be able to, prove from the Bible, that heaven is even real. But sure, I bet we could debate, ad nauseum, what this seemingly big book of confusion even asserts.

[Purple Knight]

So let me place it into a scenario, which does not bring to question fallacious reasoning...

1). After you die, God transforms you to make you suitable for a perfect place
2). After you die, God (does not) transform you to make you suitable for a perfect place???

If it is option 1), why not just allow all the willing?
If it is option 2), why not just allow all the willing?

The way I see it, if this is the idea of going to Heaven after you die, and me being as charitable as possible to that idea, all the willing absolutely are allowed. This is the way repentance and forgiveness makes the most sense to me (and while it still doesn't make sense to me that a blood sacrifice was required for this to be possible, that's a separate issue).

It would mean, you can't just say you repent, because the fundamental nature of what you become is ultimately up to you. God won't drag you kicking and screaming into that box and hit you with a laser beam to make you stop drinking. He can ask if you want him to help you stop drinking. But the rub is that he's not your abused spouse you can lie to again and again; he knows if you intend to keep drinking or not. In other words, he knows if you're lying.

And he won't hit you with the laser beam unless you actually want it.

I know this is a departure, somewhat, from the official lore, but again, this is me just trying to make sense of it.

(Note: Smoking has been replaced with drinking because imo the former is just a bad habit and the latter at least can be actually sinful in that you're hurting others by it. If you smoke and don't blow it in peoples' faces, not so much.)

you will never be able to prove from the bible that heaven is a place where nobody can sin.

I'll do you one better. I will never be able to, prove from the Bible, that heaven is even real. But sure, I bet we could debate, ad nauseum, what this seemingly big book of confusion even asserts.

I think he means that Heaven being absolutely free from sin isn't canonical.

Clearly Lucifer had the ability to sin, but it was due to an ideological issue. Imagine if every issue except the ideological was removed from play. No more greed, famine, or other worldly, emotion-based, even need-based reasons to hurt others because we live in a pretty crummy plane. That still adds up to a nice place.

And I think that Jehovah's Witnesses, and a few other sects, believe that Earth is Heaven, or at least, will become a paradise. Some Christians don't think the you bloop dead and a cute little winged guy rises up out of your corpse and floats skyward, but instead that when you die, you die, but if you are righteous, you'll be raised from the dead to participate in the paradise.

This isn't canonically wrong and as far as I read the Bible is a valid interpretation. (As is the interpretation that people don't go to Heaven at all; it's just the place God lives, and you're atheist dead anyway.)

[POI]

So let me place it into a scenario, which does not bring to question fallacious reasoning...

1). After you die, God transforms you to make you suitable for a perfect place
2). After you die, God (does not) transform you to make you suitable for a perfect place???

If it is option 1), why not just allow all the willing?
If it is option 2), why not just allow all the willing?

The way I see it, if this is the idea of going to Heaven after you die, and me being as charitable as possible to that idea, all the willing absolutely are allowed.

If such an arena exists, I doubt everyone is allowed, who wants in. Seems as though some criteria need to be met, and many will not meet them? You can metaphorically wait at the door, but maybe you will not be let in.

This is the way repentance and forgiveness makes the most sense to me (and while it still doesn't make sense to me that a blood sacrifice was required for this to be possible, that's a separate issue).

It would mean, you can't just say you repent, because the fundamental nature of what you become is ultimately up to you. God won't drag you kicking and screaming into that box and hit you with a laser beam to make you stop drinking. He can ask if you want him to help you stop drinking. But the rub is that he's not your abused spouse you can lie to again and again; he knows if you intend to keep drinking or not. In other words, he knows if you're lying.

Well, if repentance to God is a requirement for Heaven, then we are likely all screwed. I doubt anyone truly repents of all sin. Which begs the question, how much repentance is actually enough?

you will never be able to prove from the bible that heaven is a place where nobody can sin.

I'll do you one better. I will never be able to, prove from the Bible, that heaven is even real. But sure, I bet we could debate, ad nauseum, what this seemingly big book of confusion even asserts.

I think he means that Heaven being absolutely free from sin isn't canonical.

Clearly Lucifer had the ability to sin, but it was due to an ideological issue. Imagine if every issue except the ideological was removed from play. No more greed, famine, or other worldly, emotion-based, even need-based reasons to hurt others because we live in a pretty crummy plane. That still adds up to a nice place.

And I think that Jehovah's Witnesses, and a few other sects, believe that Earth is Heaven, or at least, will become a paradise. Some Christians don't think the you bloop dead and a cute little winged guy rises up out of your corpse and floats skyward, but instead that when you die, you die, but if you are righteous, you'll be raised from the dead to participate in the paradise.

This isn't canonically wrong and as far as I read the Bible is a valid interpretation. (As is the interpretation that people don't go to Heaven at all; it's just the place God lives, and you're atheist dead anyway.)

Yes, and as I already stated, using the Bible, you really cannot prove any of it... Further still, you can read a seemingly axiomatic Verse, and another Christian, whom has had extensive study in hermeneutics, can tell you that your translation is wrong But I digress...

Getting back on point, if God needs to change you, in some way, shape, or form, then just allow all in, right? Why? Because you will always be a sinner, and you will possess empathy for the unchosen who burn. Unless your argument is that there will be people in heaven who lie, steal, and cry for their unchosen loved ones? And if so, WHY call it Heaven?

[JehovahsWitness]

Unless your argument is that there will be people in heaven who lie, steal, ...

The word "DEVIL" means slanderer defined as slmeone that makes false and damaging statements. Since scripture presents the devil as being in heaven it is biblically possible to be in heaven and also be a liar. The bible also records at least one war taking place in heaven and there is indication in scripture of ongoing conflicts of interests.

JOB 1 :6 , 7

Now the day came when the sons of the true God*+ entered to take their station before Jehovah,+ and Satan+ also entered among them. Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.

To claim heaven CAN only be a place of uninterrupted bliss is scripturally inaccurate.



JW

[TRANSPONDER]

You seem to agree that a person can stop excessive drinking and still by himself.

Can he stop a second self-destructive habit and still be himself? Can he, for instance, also stop smoking without someone saying, “You are no longer you”?

I think this question strikes right to the heart of the issue, because it would, to me, depend on how the change occurred. If this guy, whose life revolves around smoking, is dragged kicking and screaming into some box where he's hit with a laser beam, and he comes out and just dumps all his cigarettes and paraphernalia in the trash, smiling, and saying, "I don't want to do that anymore, what a nasty habit." then yes, absolutely, I might question whether he was still him.

And this also approaches the answer as to why not everyone can go to Heaven.

That's rather odd because as a kid I watched a TV programme where hypnotism was (purportedly - even at the time I thought it looked faked) cured of smoking. He had stopped doing that but there was no dubt he was the same person. As a kid I cured myself of thumb -sucking. But having shed a habit I was still me. The point is (as I must suggest that the point is a doubt, not as assertion) that so much has to go - even memories - even the ability to be aware that souls are suffering on earth if not in Hell (since one might say there is heaven but no hell and God does indeed do it for everyone) that you are no longer 'You' and in fact are no longer human, but a bubble of laughing - gas without even the ability to reason, never mind praise God eternally.

It's just a doubt that makes me think that eternal bliss is not a feasible concept. No, I have to think that the promise of heaven is a bribe that religion uses to keep the people coming back to religion, together with hellthreat to make them afraid not to. I am very much inclined to think that it all a very human instinct to long for a lucky event that will make everything wonderful, we will be vindicated (and our detractors and those who did us down cast into a fiery pit) and - most particularly - we can ease that instinctive dread of death.

It's just one more doubt along with being sure that the Bible is not reliable, there is no scrap of decent evidence for a Creator and seeing no one religion as really any more probable than another than makes me inclined to put no credibility whatsoever into religious claims.

[TRANSPONDER]

According to the Bible, Heaven is a place without sin, and nothing but bliss.

That is simply not true.

JOB 1 :6 , 7

Now the day came when the sons of the true God*+ entered to take their station before Jehovah,+ and Satan+ also entered among them. Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.

Heaven is and will always remain a place where individuals can choose to do good or bad.




JW

Ah. Well that's where it all falls apart isn't it? Just like reading about God walking through Eden shouting for Adam as though he didn't know very well where he was and what he was up to already. It's why atheists regard the Eden scenario as a stitch up (or it would be if it wasn't a myth) as it makes no sense unless God intended it to make sure Man sinned. Just as the flood makes no sense unless God wanted to watch his creation drowning. And is why Bible skeptics tend to see the whole thing as a tall story made up by rather clumsy writers with little or no scientific knowledge. At least the writers of the Quran knew how many joints are in the human body.

But this is a thread about whether a sinless soul could still have a trace of the former individual rather than about the very human idea of heaven as a kingdom perched on top of the Babylonian snow - dome cosmos, populated with slave - with Angels who are capable of plotting God's overthrow, as though God didn't know what they were thinking and could just eliminate them with an act of will, and only let the revolt of Lucifer go ahead because he needed eventual staff to stoke his nice shiney new ovens for when he started stuffing into them souls that Would (in life) insist on reading non -kjv Bibles.