A Question Unanswered, When in Church...

[POI]

During the last year or so of attending church, I was still reluctant to ask probing questions for fear of 'rocking the boat'. In the back of each chair were suggestion/question cards, which anyone could fill out and turn in... I asked the same question, about a dozen times, and never received any type of response.

For debate:

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

[TRANSPONDER]

...
The point being, god granted special favor to Israelites, for the mere fact they are Israelites. ...

Sorry, I don't think you have provided any good reason to believe so. Can you show even a single scripture from the Bible that supports your claim?

I already did that. You must not be paying attention.

Sorry, I didn't find any scripture that supports your claim. Maybe you could show direct quote from the Bible that says: "special favor to Israelites, for the mere fact they are Israelites"?

I just love crafty, dishonest and rather clumsy Bible -apologuists tactics. The "I did not use hose xact words" ploy. The Bible does not have to have God say "I avour the Israelites above all other nations" to see that this is what he does and says he does. It began with a supposed promise to Abraham, and has God looking out for them ever after (aside from having to excuse the Jews getting clobbered as 'punishment'), until when the Greeks took over God - worship, God switched sides.

[POI]

Sorry, I didn't find any scripture that supports your claim. Maybe you could show direct quote from the Bible that says: "special favor to Israelites, for the mere fact they are Israelites"?

Sure, no problem....

"but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." - Lev. 25:46

[tam]

Peace to you,

Have you forgotten that Israel DID acknowledge God and enter into a covenant with Him - Israel and God?

This would be like saying America has acknowledged Jesus as their savior. Even if the majority claim Christianity, each and every person would need specific evaluation by this deity; based upon this diety's wishes/commands.

(i.e.) "America and Jesus"

Regardless of how you feel about it, the covenant was with God and Israel. The nation (which means the people) of Israel. The entire nation was under the law and covenant (as mediated through Moses). Just as everyone in America is subject to the government and the law of the land, whether they agree or not. Not that we have any objections to the covenant between God and Israel. Why would there have been objections? God had just rescued them from slavery, protected them from a pursuing army, fed them in the wilderness, provided water, even provided meat for them when they grumbled that the manna was not enough.

And yes, parents do have the authority to decide for their children. Some parents make good decisions for their children, some do not (most of us make some good and some bad decisions).

Also, please note what you wrote: 'based on this deity's wishes/commands'. That is what is being done. Not based on POI's wishes/commands; not based on tam's wishes/commands. Based upon the wishes and commands of God (and His Son).

Regardless of any temporary hardening, God knows how this all turns out (just as He knew what would happen then).

Yes, another head-scratcher.....

Not at all. It (and the comment below) was in direct response to your comment (about someone in the covenant asking for their children to be protected, even if those children might never acknowledge God.)

And the people invited into the Kingdom (no matter their role there), and receiving eternal life, will obviously acknowledge God and His Son, and be grateful for the gift of life and healing they (and their children) have been given.

Again, there would be no reason to mention 'accidental properties' anywhere (i.e.) Israelites. If individuals believe/follow, they believe/follow.

See above for the reason for my comment.

Abraham was not an Israelite.

I think you are missing the bigger picture here... To mention 'accidental properties' at all, is something a human would do; and not what an omnibenevolent agency would do. And yet, as demonstrated, more than once, He apparently does.

You know many omnibenevolent agencies, do you?



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[POI]

the covenant was with God and Israel. The nation (which means the people) of Israel.

This again more-so demonstrates human thinking. God creates everything, and for whatever arbitrary reason, decides to hyper-focus on Israelites? God is not bound by 'accidental properties', right? Thus, out of the two choices, which is more probable?

A) God ordained Israelites?
B) Israelites ordained God?

And it's funny how millions still think this type of stuff happens today. (i.e.)

- "God bless America"
- A football team prays -- (as if god will favor one team over another)
etc etc etc......

[tam]

Peace to you,

the covenant was with God and Israel. The nation (which means the people) of Israel.

This again more-so demonstrates human thinking. God creates everything, and for whatever arbitrary reason, decides to hyper-focus on Israelites?

It has been explained to you many times in this thread that this was not an arbitrary reason. You may choose to ignore or reject that, but that does not change the fact.

God is not bound by 'accidental properties', right?

See above. God is not bound by accidental properties. But God does keep His promises and His covenants. How else would we know that He means what He says? How can a person know to have faith in someone who does not keep His promises?

Thus, out of the two choices, which is more probable?

A) God ordained Israelites?
B) Israelites ordained God?

Your question actually comes down to the following two choices: God exists or God does not exist.

Because if God exists, then honoring a covenant and keeping His word is something a God of love would DO, yes?

If God does not exist, then obviously "b" is the answer.



Peace again.

[POI]

It has been explained to you many times in this thread that this was not an arbitrary reason. You may choose to ignore or reject that, but that does not change the fact.

The given 'explanation(s)' are irrelevant. I've explained why. If you choose to continue ignoring/rejecting them, that's on you.

God is not bound by accidental properties.

Well, in some cases, He does place favor, based upon "accidental properties."

Further, are you making the claim that no such "Israelite" can be traced by their bloodline? If not, then we are speaking about 'accidental properties', as it pertains to Lev. 25:46.

http://www.britannica.com/place/Israel/People

But God does keep His promises and His covenants. How else would we know that He means what He says? How can a person know to have faith in someone who does not keep His promises?

Not sure why you mention this... The debate is not about whether or not He keeps His promises. The debate is rather, why God would place favor to a specific populous, based upon 'accidental properties'.

Your question actually comes down to the following two choices: God exists or God does not exist.

Because if God exists, then honoring a covenant and keeping His word is something a God of love would DO, yes?

If God does not exist, then obviously "b" is the answer.

I disagree. It's not necessary about if a God exists... All it demonstrates is that the 'Israelites" 'created' a god, using their own human like traits. Some god(s) may still be lurking about somewhere?.?.?.?.?

Just like today, when many say "God bless America" or a particular team prays to win. You will find this kind of stuff in the Bible, and still here now....

Case/point, "the god of the Jews" or "god helped this tribe defeat that tribe".

[tam]

Peace to you,

Well, this is just repetitive so unless something new comes up after this post, I will not be responding.

It has been explained to you many times in this thread that this was not an arbitrary reason. You may choose to ignore or reject that, but that does not change the fact.

The given 'explanation(s)' are irrelevant. I've explained why.

Because that is not how you think a creator would work. That is what is irrelevant. You can think and believe whatever seems best to you of course, but it is irrelevant as to how said Creator would work.

God is not bound by accidental properties.

Well, in some cases, He does place favor, based upon "accidental properties."

Honoring a promise made to Abraham is not an 'accidental property'.

Offering a covenant with a people (due to the promise and covenant made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) is not an 'accidental property'. Having a covenant with a people who agreed to it is not accidental property.

Your question actually comes down to the following two choices: God exists or God does not exist.

Because if God exists, then honoring a covenant and keeping His word is something a God of love would DO, yes?

If God does not exist, then obviously "b" is the answer.

I disagree. It's not necessary about if a God exists... All it demonstrates is that the 'Israelites" 'created' a god, using their own human like traits.

And you come to this conclusion based solely on the fact that God had a covenant with Israel, therefore Israel must have 'created' God.


Even though clearly people other than Israel (and Abraham) worshiped and/or served this same God. Melchizedek for example. (who was a contemporary of Abraham) Not to mention whichever people and land Abraham was called OUT OF (who had to have served God at one point, but had gone the way of most nations in taking up practices that are abhorrent to God.)



Peace again to you.

[POI]

Peace to you,

Well, this is just repetitive so unless something new comes up after this post, I will not be responding.

It has been explained to you many times in this thread that this was not an arbitrary reason. You may choose to ignore or reject that, but that does not change the fact.

The given 'explanation(s)' are irrelevant. I've explained why.

Because that is not how you think a creator would work. That is what is irrelevant. You can think and believe whatever seems best to you of course, but it is irrelevant as to how said Creator would work.

God is not bound by accidental properties.

Well, in some cases, He does place favor, based upon "accidental properties."

Honoring a promise made to Abraham is not an 'accidental property'.

Offering a covenant with a people (due to the promise and covenant made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) is not an 'accidental property'. Having a covenant with a people who agreed to it is not accidental property.

Your question actually comes down to the following two choices: God exists or God does not exist.

Because if God exists, then honoring a covenant and keeping His word is something a God of love would DO, yes?

If God does not exist, then obviously "b" is the answer.

I disagree. It's not necessary about if a God exists... All it demonstrates is that the 'Israelites" 'created' a god, using their own human like traits.

And you come to this conclusion based solely on the fact that God had a covenant with Israel, therefore Israel must have 'created' God.


Even though clearly people other than Israel (and Abraham) worshiped and/or served this same God. Melchizedek for example. (who was a contemporary of Abraham) Not to mention whichever people and land Abraham was called OUT OF (who had to have served God at one point, but had gone the way of most nations in taking up practices that are abhorrent to God.)



Peace again to you.

You skipped some pertinent stuff here. Let's try a different approach.

This thread has NOTHING to do with whether or not God keeps a promise. It instead has to do with WHAT criteria is used, for which God bases promises. In the case mentioned, (Lev. 25:46), His criteria was that they are of a particular bloodline --- as I provided a link in the previous response. The given verse speaks nothing about anything other than them being Israelites. Hence, you have to invent alternative reason(s).

In other cases, God places favor for one tribe to completely destroy another. We humans are limited by these types of tactics. God, apparently, is not limited in this way. God would/could merely zap away individuals, and keep the ones deemed worthy.

So when a 'god-favored' tribe is told to completely destroy another, it's highly unlikely all of them are pure 'evil'. It's just like when a country goes to war with other country. We have to destroy large areas, and cause "collateral damage", because we are limited. God telling one tribe to completely destroy another, would be unnecessary, being that small children/others are innocent. The writer tells the tale that the entire tribe must be destroyed, verses god giving them to power to pluck off individuals. Or better yet, god does it himself.....

Thus, the apologist will just argue that they would have later grown up to be 'evil'.

So, again:

"God of Israel" = "God bless America"
"God promised that our tribe will defeat their tribe" = "God, help us 49er's beat the Cowboys"

[1213]

Sorry, I didn't find any scripture that supports your claim. Maybe you could show direct quote from the Bible that says: "special favor to Israelites, for the mere fact they are Israelites"?

Sure, no problem....

"but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." - Lev. 25:46

That does not say the reason why so.

[1213]

... I just love crafty, dishonest and rather clumsy Bible -apologuists tactics. The "I did not use hose xact words" ploy. The Bible does not have to have God say "I avour the Israelites above all other nations"...

If this is about your interpretation, not direct words from the Bible, why should your interpretation be taken as a meaningful fact?