A Question Unanswered, When in Church...

[POI]

During the last year or so of attending church, I was still reluctant to ask probing questions for fear of 'rocking the boat'. In the back of each chair were suggestion/question cards, which anyone could fill out and turn in... I asked the same question, about a dozen times, and never received any type of response.

For debate:

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

[Avoice]

God had to choose someone on earth to represent him in truth. A people that would protect his message to man. The church has altered the text of the Hebrew Scriptures to make them look as if they point to Jesus.
The Jews are a kingdom of priests. Anyone who wants to know what God really said doesnt hold up the King Hanes version. If someone wants the truth they will go to the source not a translation.
If not for the Jews the world would have no idea that the writer of Mathews supposed claim that it was prophecied that the messiah would be born to a virgin. He misquotes Isaiah 7:14 as proof saying:
"Behold a virgin will conceive and bare a son and they shall call his babe Immanuel.."
THATS NOT WHAT IT SAYS! It says:
"Behold the young women is with child and she shall call his name Immanuel.."

This isnt about a birth 700 in the future. 1) it doesnt say virgin 2) the woman was already pregnant when Isaiah spoke to king Ahaz. The sign wasnt the child. The sign was that the enemies of Ahaz would be destroyed. The chikd was merely used as a calendar. That by the time that child reached a certain age would be when his enemies would die. And it doesnt say THEY WILL CALL. It says the mother would call him Immanuel. But since she didnt the church changed it from SHE WILL CALL to they will call.
The child in question is born in the next chapter. And Ahazs enemies were destroyed as was prophecied.

Its not about the messiah. But God impregnating humans was a big belief by pagan religions. And that attracted them to Christianity.

[JoeyKnothead]

Whew, this OP was presented just in time for Sunday!

[1213]

...
Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

By what the Bible tells, it was because they were loyal to God, others rejected Him.

[POI]

...
Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

By what the Bible tells, it was because they were loyal to God, others rejected Him.

1) The Bible tells it's readers that if you are a Jew, you are loyal?
2) If He creates people, then why not create everyone as a Jew?
3) If Jews are already loyal, then why test them?
4) So no non-Jew was loyal?

I'll stop here....

[TRANSPONDER]

Apologists can always come up with some explanation. What really matters is not excuse, evasion of just faithbased denial in the face of pretty hard proof - like one at least of the nativities not being true. But the bottom line is Not what the Believer can tell themselves so as to avoid doubt and question, but what makes sense to anyone still with an open mind...and I Will post that mustwatch Qualiasoup video on the subject.

So, God picks the Jews as His people. I for one don't believe a word of it, not just because Genesis is debunked by science and (I am inclined to think) Exodus by history, but the Jewishness of people before there were really Israelites taken out of Egypt and the Law not yet given, as guidance (Paul says) because they were harder of heart even than the gentiles. They needed Laws imposed to make them behave, and God didn't know that the Gentiles would be morally better? Well, no because they were worse, but God could use them to smash the Jews, just as though they weren't a chosen people at all, just to punish them for not being good enough. But my point is that Noah took clean beasts on the Ark so he could sacrifice them as though the laws of Jewish sacrifice had already been given. Later on we find the descendants of Noah divided into the children of Jacob and the other peoples, Moab or Edom or Ammon, destined to be the slaves of Israel. That makes no sense when Israel hadn't even come out of Ur yet, let alone somehow tuned into the 12 tribes while an enslaved mass in Egypt.

I know, some clever apologist can come up with explanations, I can myself, but I reckon anyone with room for doubt will agree with me that Genesis and Exodus are origin - stories drawing on the Israelites of later centuries (I say the Jews of the Exile) for the character of the People God supposedly chose as ALL his people from the start.

I can already hear the apologetics, but really, after all they'd gone through, God turned his back on them and made the Greco -Romans his people 'that were not his people' and the Jews pretty deserving of all the toco they got, even though the One God - worship kept them a people no matter what (as it was perfectly made to do - religion is a remarkable resistor of Other religions (1) and all the laws that had been so important were pretty much tossed in the bin by Jesus, or by Paul, rather. As I say, I know the excuses, but doesn't it make more sense that the People that God favored suddenly changed when... Why, What A Coincidence...the people worshipping him changed?.

Required watching by anyone who claims to be logical even if they flap about the trappings of 'Philosophy'.


(1) Just consider the Philippines - tough fighters against the initial Spanish voyagers, but converted from animism to Catholicism in short order - except in the south where they'd already been converted to Islam, and Islamic they still are.

[JoeyKnothead]

Whew, this OP was presented just in time for Sunday!

For the record, that was an inside joke for the pretty thing, who sometimes reads my posts. She said the same thing when I told her, a Nascar fan, that the race was on today.

[tam]

Peace to you,

During the last year or so of attending church, I was still reluctant to ask probing questions for fear of 'rocking the boat'. In the back of each chair were suggestion/question cards, which anyone could fill out and turn in... I asked the same question, about a dozen times, and never received any type of response.

For debate:

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

Because of Abraham, with whom God made a promise for his offspring/household/descendants, based on Abraham's faith in God (which faith manifested in obedience and also friendship).

So this started with Abraham and his faith (and obedience) and love for God. God loved Abraham also, and if you love someone, you also love and care for those THEY love, and so God made Abraham promises with regard to his household, offspring.

Just some history to get to the Jews from Abraham:

After Abraham, that promise/covenant passed through Isaac (though God also blessed Ishmael and the rest of Abraham's children). From Isaac, it went through Jacob (renamed Israel). Then the covenant was mediated with the rest of Israel (offspring Jacob/Israel) via Moses (which included the law and the temple/priesthood system). So God had a covenant with Israel (Not the Jews only, but Israel. People seem to forget or just do not know that Jews are only two of the twelve tribes of Israel and the covenant was between God and Israel, not just the Jews). A covenant is a contract between two or more parties (just as a marriage is also). God agreed to certain things. Israel agreed to certain things - including to worship God only, to love Him with their whole heart mind and soul. God was their God, and they were His people.

Unfortunately, Israel continued to break their end of the covenant, but God still had His promise to Abraham, His friend, and Israel was loved because of Abraham (Romans 11:28). God took Israel back each time they repented. Eventually, Israel split into two Kingdoms (Israel - ten tribes; and Judah - two tribes). Both kingdoms were unfaithful and were sent away with a 'certificate of divorce'; the Kingdom of Israel was taken by the Assyrians, the Kingdom of Judah was taken by the Babylonians. But Judah was permitted to return and to rebuild the Temple and continue to worship, and that helped them to maintain their identity.


When Christ came, He came first for the Jews (who continued to worship at the Temple as instructed, even if the priesthood had become corrupt and hypocritical - yet again) because of that covenant and promise. Then also Samaritans (who were also Israel, and Christ came for the lost sheep of Israel). After Israel rejected Him (not all individual people but the leadership/priesthood, in general), the invitation into the new covenant opened up to anyone, everyone (including all Gentiles).

Literal (flesh and blood) Israel still has a place reserved for them (144 000 places to be precise) in the Kingdom as kings and priests to reign with Christ. That guarantee is because of the promises to Abraham. But the great crowd that reigns with Christ in His Kingdom for at least a thousand years is taken from ALL tribes, nations, people and tongues, including the twelve tribes of Israel. So there are at least 144 000 from Israel, but also as many more as there are those whose faith is in Christ.

So it is again about faith, faith in Christ, being called AND CHOSEN (anointed with holy spirit) by Christ. This is for those who will reign in the Kingdom with Christ as kings and priests (for at least a thousand years).



There are also others (from all walks of life) who will be invited into the Kingdom as subjects of that Kingdom, based upon their deeds (as written in their individual scrolls). See: viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804

And ALL Israel will be saved (if not as king-priests, then as subjects of the Kingdom), on account of the patriarchs. They are loved on account of the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob). Romans 11:28, 29.


Everything described above is about and from love.

If you think Abraham being given a promise was about arbitrary favoritism, it was not. Abraham had FAITH. He not only heard, but also believed God (when God spoke) and He obeyed God's commandments. He loved God. God loved him.

Same with Noah - Noah had faith, faith enough to hear God and obey (build the ark and get on it). That is how Noah saved himself and his household.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

I am at a loss as to why your church did not bother to answer this question. I can answer it.

The question you asked is pertaining to the worldview that if God exists, thus the answer will be given in that worldview if God exists, thus we assume the existence of God in order to answer this question. If you end up disagreeing with the answer, then do that, but do not ask, well where is the evidence for God?

If you do wish to ask where is the evidence for God, you should start a thread and ask that question.

Possible answers as to why if God exists he would place favor towards Jews. Jews are not a race BTW. So maybe you mean to ask, why place favor toward Hebrews?

1. Because God wills it within his omniscience and lovingness.
2. Because God is not actually placing favor toward Hebrews but toward one person like Abraham, and then promised Abraham that he would bless his children and does so. God chose to bless Abraham within his omniscience and lovingness (all loving).
3. Because God sees that in all time (his omniscience), these are the best people to attempt to bring my glory to the world via their own kingdom and king, knowing they will fail, then he will bring his kingdom to earth (all loving) and hand to keys directly to Peter. That kingdom brings his glory and many are saved. (all loving) It becomes the biggest religion ever.


My question is why would it be conflicting for an omniscient, all-loving God to choose someone(s)?

Even if all-loving means loving everyone equally, it would not be in conflict to choose someone over others if he is the best choice.

If I have two children whom I love the same, and I always choose Mike to by my bible trivia partner, it is not because I love him more. It is because he has proven to be better at bible trivia and I want to win.

I suspect you will have bible verses with other specific examples of God choosing someone for a specific task. I am sure I will be able to offer similar answers.

[1213]

...
Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

By what the Bible tells, it was because they were loyal to God, others rejected Him.

1) The Bible tells it's readers that if you are a Jew, you are loyal?
2) If He creates people, then why not create everyone as a Jew?
3) If Jews are already loyal, then why test them?
4) So no non-Jew was loyal?

1) No. It tells the ancestors of Jews were loyal, that is why God gave them the promises and chose the nation. Bible also shows not all Jews have been loyal, because these came true:
"'But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Leviticus 26:14-16
I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33
2) Creating everyone as a Jew is not useful, if people don't want to be that. God has given freedom to people to choose to do they want to be loyal to Him or not.
3) Test them? What do you mean?
4) I think everyone who is loyal to Bible God can be counted as a Jew, because:
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29