Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[Shem Yoshi]

What I see as purpose. I believe I ought to get this job im interviewing for this week. I ought to pray more. I ought to live like Christ. I ought to spread the Gospel.

Purpose and ought are both subjective terms, so will only get you subjective (if happy) conclusions.

I dont accept that... I already showed you this is self refuting... You are making objective claims while saying truths are subjective. I dont care to debate this any more.

[JoeyKnothead]

What I see as purpose. I believe I ought to get this job im interviewing for this week. I ought to pray more. I ought to live like Christ. I ought to spread the Gospel.

Purpose and ought are both subjective terms, so will only get you subjective (if happy) conclusions.

I dont accept that... I already showed you this is self refuting... You are making objective claims while saying truths are subjective. I dont care to debate this any more.

We're all aware many theists prefer their beliefs over facts.

I did not say truths are subjective and your statement in that regard points to your errant thinking.

We're also aware many theists'll disengage if their pet beliefs are questioned.

[Athetotheist]

Those attributes would themselves have to be material, wouldn't they? Again, that would be invoking material existence to explain itself, a circular argument. And you don't seem equally willing to entertain the notion that God might have attributes we're not aware of.

I don't understand this need for anything to account for itself.

Then I assume that you see no need for a god to account for itself.

[brunumb]

Lets assume really quick that there IS purpose (for the sake of this discussion)... It can be anything you want, purely for the sake of debate...

In that case please begin by outlining what you see as the purpose of the universe.

What I see as purpose. I believe I ought to get this job im interviewing for this week. I ought to pray more. I ought to live like Christ. I ought to spread the Gospel.

And that said. you completely ignore my question of how you separate ought from purpose... What are you trying to get at? Are you fishing for some answer?

I suppose ultimately i put my faith in God. Sometimes my plans change at no result of my own, and I have faith God has a destination for my life, and he has a purpose for me.

Maybe it is to be a friend of someone in need? Maybe it is to sow seeds for God? Or to comfort someone morning? Maybe its to pray for your enemies, and to give to those in need? Maybe it is to love others and to love God? Maybe to lay down my life for another person?

Yes, I am fishing for an answer. What is the purpose of the universe? The reason for its existence? I'm sure it does not exist merely for you to go for a job interview. All this 'ought' stuff is completely irrelevant to the question of purpose.

[brunumb]

Those attributes would themselves have to be material, wouldn't they? Again, that would be invoking material existence to explain itself, a circular argument. And you don't seem equally willing to entertain the notion that God might have attributes we're not aware of.

I don't understand this need for anything to account for itself.

Then I assume that you see no need for a god to account for itself.

Now you are just going around in circles. How or why should either account for themselves? What is it you are getting at? What is the point?

[Shem Yoshi]

Lets assume really quick that there IS purpose (for the sake of this discussion)... It can be anything you want, purely for the sake of debate...

In that case please begin by outlining what you see as the purpose of the universe.

What I see as purpose. I believe I ought to get this job im interviewing for this week. I ought to pray more. I ought to live like Christ. I ought to spread the Gospel.

And that said. you completely ignore my question of how you separate ought from purpose... What are you trying to get at? Are you fishing for some answer?

I suppose ultimately i put my faith in God. Sometimes my plans change at no result of my own, and I have faith God has a destination for my life, and he has a purpose for me.

Maybe it is to be a friend of someone in need? Maybe it is to sow seeds for God? Or to comfort someone morning? Maybe its to pray for your enemies, and to give to those in need? Maybe it is to love others and to love God? Maybe to lay down my life for another person?

Yes, I am fishing for an answer. What is the purpose of the universe? The reason for its existence? I'm sure it does not exist merely for you to go for a job interview. All this 'ought' stuff is completely irrelevant to the question of purpose.

I have answered the question, then when you wanted a better answer I elaborated to help you understand what I am saying, all the while you you didn't even bother answering my question...

I still dont see how an ought can be separated from a purpose, i asked you to give an example, you didnt, and then i answered your question even further...

I see no reason to believe "ought's" dont speak to somethings purpose. I see no reason to believe that the purpose isnt what i said, like to love others, to give to the poor, etc... Or even to go to my job interview... The universes purpose very well may be that we can live for God, and like God, that it can sustain our lives that we can live with God.


It really is a shame, that you are ignoring the answer... That we ought to love one another, to give to the poor, to help those in need, to love our enemy, or pray for those who deceitfully use us...

[Shem Yoshi]

"Ought to is used as follows: to express an obligation or an expectation that someone should do something."
https://grammar.collinsdictionary.com/e ... in-english


I still dont see how ought is different then purpose. I suppose the only difference I can come up with is that the "purpose" is a definite objective of something (maybe)... And "ought to" might be a probable statement opposed to the definite....

Though i still dont see how it is much difrent.

"The purpose of the universe is to sustain life"
"the universe ought to sustain life"

how are those statements different?

you said "All this 'ought' stuff is completely irrelevant to the question of purpose."

but it seems like the statement above between ought and purpose is nearly identical... It seems to be that ANY statement of purpose can be expressed as "ought to"...

[brunumb]

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #147]

"You ought to do your homework".
"Why? What is the purpose of doing homework?"

"What is the purpose of the universe?"
"The universe ought to be there".
"Why?"
"So I can go for a job interview".

Your responses have made no sense to me, so I am giving up. Was that your intention? Don't answer.

[By the way, there is a difference between 'then' and 'than']

[Shem Yoshi]

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #147]

"You ought to do your homework".
"Why? What is the purpose of doing homework?"

"What is the purpose of the universe?"
"The universe ought to be there".
"Why?"
"So I can go for a job interview".

Your responses have made no sense to me, so I am giving up. Was that your intention? Don't answer.

[By the way, there is a difference between 'then' and 'than']

Well I would like to answer...

The reason i brought up a job interview (which is apparently a very low hanging fruit for you), is because i wanted to make a point that purpose might not be some huge overall thing, but maybe its the little things of how we live our lives. Maybe our purpose is day to day in little things we do...

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to brunumb in post #145

Now you are just going around in circles. How or why should either account for themselves? What is it you are getting at? What is the point?

Something which accounts for itself needs no outside agency to account for it.