Killed by a lion!!!

[alexxcJRO]

On one hand we have Jesus teaching about non-violence and turning the other cheek.

38 You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. (Matthew 5:38"41)

On the other hand we have this story:

A man is killed for not wanting to strike a prophet when was asked to do so by the prophet himself.
The prophet wanted a good disguise when he met King Ahab, and he figured a wound would help. So he wanted his neighbor to cut his face, so he could put a bandage on it, so King Ahab wouldn't recognize him when he saw him.
Anyway, this prick of a prophet found another guy who was willing to smite him.

35 Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, Strike me! But the man refused to strike the prophet. 36 Then the prophet told him, Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me. And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.
37 Then he found another man, and said, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man smote him, so that in smiting he wounded him.
38 So the prophet departed, and waited for the king by the way, and disguised himself with ashes upon his face.
(1 Kings 20:35-38)

This story is so ridiculous, illogical and in contradiction with what Jesus thought that my brain hurt so bad after reading it.

Q: The best way to disguise yourself is to cut your face? Wait what?:))

Q: Why not just put a bandage on your face without the cut?

Q: Why not cover your face, change cloths, cut your hair, facial hair?

Q: Why not cut yourself if you cant think of anything better cuz your no more brighter then a rock?

Q: But wait the most intelligent, wiser, most powerful being in the universe couldnt have thought of something else? How is that possible?

Q: But wait the most intelligent, wiser, most powerful and compassionate being in the universe kills the man for refusing to engage in violent behavior and while later the same being taught about non-violence? How is that possible?

Q: What about his right to exercise his free will by choosing not to strike? He is not allowed to refuse? So much for free will, huh?


The only reasonable conclusion is that this stories dont have anything to do with an all powerful, all wise, all merciful, omniscient, omnibenevolent, creator of the universe. These are just actions of stupid, delusional, sociopathic people.

Imagine this dialogue:

Prophet: Hey neighbor come here for a second.

Neighbor: Hey, whats up?

Prophet: Come here and cut my face.

Neighbor: Wait what? Are you serious? Why?

Prophet: Cut my face, man. This is a direct command from god. I need a disguise.

Neighbor: Just bandage your face with a cloth or cut your hair, facial hair, change your cloths.

Prophet: But God command it. You have to do it or else.

Neighbor: Get out here, man. I am not going to cut your face. What are you crazy? Cut your own face.

Prophet: Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.

And the neighbor leaves.
A lion comes later and kills the neighbor.

[1213]

In kings 20:35 the bible clearly states The Lord aka Yahweh(God) instructed the prophet to strike another man....

...35 Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, Strike me! But the man refused to strike the prophet. 36 Then the prophet told him, Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me. And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.
37 Then he found another man, and said, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man smote him, so that in smiting he wounded him.
38 So the prophet departed, and waited for the king by the way, and disguised himself with ashes upon his face.

(1 Kings 20:35-38)

Ok, but the lion didnt get the commandment to kill, according to the Bible. It is possible that it did what it did, because of it happened to be there hungry and the person was there. So, the conclusion is, God warned what will happen, if the person doesnt do as said and then it happened. Maybe we should take seriously Gods warnings, if things go as He warns?

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to 1213]

Ok, but the lion didnt get the commandment to kill, according to the Bible. It is possible that it did what it did, because of it happened to be there hungry and the person was there.

God threatens through an intermediary:

Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.

Your scenario does not follow logically from this phrase.
The text clearly says that because he disobeyed the Lord the lion will kill him and it did.

This is your logic:
God said through an intermediary that something(Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me) will happen and then said: Nah, even though i said that he will be punished(by sending a lion) for disobedience, i will go against my word and not punish him(therefore i am a liar). But somehow that still happened by mistake(Even though God din't send a lion like he said he would, the lion came by random chance).

Q: What would be point in telling this story? (God is just a bully, God is a liar, God only threatens disobedient sinners for no reason, God likes to make empty threats like some weakling. This is more bad then following on your threats, because this shows lack of integrity and his word becomes meaningless, untrustworthy. )

Q: How making God a liar and saying practically that he had gone against his promise does the case more good, huh?:))


But what about the other questions(you avoid them ):

Q: But wait the most intelligent, wiser, most powerful being in the universe couldnt have thought of something else? How is that possible?

Q: Why did God not magically transformed his appearance just by saying the words?(he has endless ways to do this, he is all powerful and omniscient)

[ttruscott]

Dude our sinful will is our free will.

Free Will is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.

Dude, thanks for the lecture but I disagree with this philosophical definition. If free will just means our ordinary way of making a decision then of what use is it to philosophy or anything else? it would be redundant and meaningless to call it free.

I contend (within my PCE) that the distinguishing characteristics of a true free will choice are:
1. absolutely without coercion, either the coercion to chose one particular option in a choice or the constraint of not being able to choose any particular option within the choice. A coercion forces the choice to only one option and cannot be resisted. A constraint limits the options from including all options and is also irresistible since it is an unknown.

Nothing in their created nature could force them to choose love or hate, good or evil.
Nothing in their experience could force them to choose love or hate, good or evil.
Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could force them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

2. with a full understanding of the consequences of choosing each option or else they are not choosing at all but making a guess

3. without proof that He was GOD, ie by faith, because knowledge of the proof of GOD's divinity would overwhelm their choice and coerce everyone to chose to accept HIM as their GOD whether they wanted to accept it or not.

Therefore, Christ telling us that sinners are enslaved or addicted to evil which clouds their minds and wills means that sinners on earth do not have a free will but only an enslaved will until it is made free again by rebirth. Humans are coerced by the addiction to do evil and they are constrained from the ability to do good.

Your beloved Lord aka Yahweh(God) supposedly the most intelligent, wise and compassionate being in the universe through an intermediary engages in coercion using threats and intimidation. (Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.).

coercion
k()n/Submit
noun
the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

Have you ever thought about the difference between a threat and a warning? Is a man waving the lantern on a dark and stormy night who stops you and tells you not to proceed because the bridge is out, THREATENING you? He is saying: Stop or you die. Do as I say or you will die! but no one will listen to you if you call for his arrest for threatening you.

It was the same when GOD told us that to choose to accept HIS claim to be GOD would gain us heaven, told in wonderful detail and that IF we rejected HIS claim to be our GOD then we would end in hell, told in gruesome detail.

Is hell a threat? Not at all as there is no immediacy to hell, it has not been proved it exists or that this GOD claimer has access to hell or controls it or is telling the truth about it at all. If we were so afraid of hell that we could never chose to rebel against GOD then this world could never have become what it is. Evil proves free will as no one would choose hell by sinning if it was proved.

And also, if the man who refused to do the will of the Lord and cut the prophet was told that THEREFORE a lion would kill him, this is not a threat but the fact of being convicted of a capital crime, soon to be carried out.

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to ttruscott]

Dude, thanks for the lecture but I disagree with this philosophical definition. If free will just means our ordinary way of making a decision then of what use is it to philosophy or anything else? it would be redundant and meaningless to call it free.

Therefore, Christ telling us that sinners are enslaved or addicted to evil which clouds their minds and wills means that sinners on earth do not have a free will but only an enslaved will until it is made free again by rebirth. Humans are coerced by the addiction to do evil and they are constrained from the ability to do good.


Yeah lets ignore philosophy and definitions.

Lets not evolve, get passed the cognitive dissonance and lets not follow evidence guide us where it may leads us.
Lets ignore everything that disagrees with our preconceived concepts and ideas.
A textbook example of confirmation bias.

Let us follow your own logic:
Your saying that those that are not born again in Christ do not poses free will.
But this poses again major problems because:

-Judgments can apply only to actions that are freely chosen.
-Only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving credit or blame.

If a person dies without being born again, he dies without ever experimenting free will(he was just a automaton); therefore he cant be judge after death for actions which were not freely chosen.
But yet your theology talks about The Final Judgement.

Conclusion: Your being illogical, again.

Have you ever thought about the difference between a threat and a warning? Is a man waving the lantern on a dark and stormy night who stops you and tells you not to proceed because the bridge is out, THREATENING you? He is saying: Stop or you die. Do as I say or you will die! but no one will listen to you if you call for his arrest for threatening you.

Man your killing me.

Lets see what threat means:

threat
rt/Submit
noun
1.
a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done.
"members of her family have received death threats"
synonyms: threatening remark, warning, ultimatum, intimidating remark; More
2.
a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger.
"hurricane damage poses a major threat to many coastal communities"
https://www.google.ro/search?client=ope ... 8#q=threat

Q: Do we have a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done?

A: Yes we have a statement of an intention to inflict injury, damage:: Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me. on someone: the neighbor in retribution for something not done: he did not cut someone face when asked.

We do not only have the supposed most intelligent, wiser, most powerful, most compasionate being in the universe making threats but also following on them and causing harm and death.
Imagine being torn in pieces by a lion because you refused to cut other's man face.

Q: Isnt that ridiculous?



Avoiding again. Classic trade mark for theists.

Please address this sir.


We have God instruct one of his prophets to cut a mans face for a disguise.

Q: The best way to disguise yourself is to cut your face? Wait what? )

Q: Why not just put a bandage on your face without the cut?

Q: Why not cover your face, change cloths, cut your hair, facial hair?

Q: Why not cut yourself if you cant think of anything better cuz your no more brighter then a rock?

Q: Why did God not magically transformed his appearance just by saying the words?(he has endless ways to do this, he is all powerful and omniscient)

Q: But wait the most intelligent, wiser, most powerful being in the universe couldnt have thought of something else? How is that possible?

[1213]

Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.

Your scenario does not follow logically from this phrase.
The text clearly says that because he disobeyed the Lord the lion will kill him and it did.
...Even though God din't send a lion like he said he would, the lion came by random chance).
....

Yes, but that doesnt mean that it was commanded attack. It can be similar as saying, if you put your hand in fire, your hand will burn. If the person would have done what he should have, then the situation could have gone differently, he would not have been in same place with the lion at the same time. By what I know, Bible doesnt say God sent the lion, that seems to be purely from your imagination and it makes me wonder why you imagine such things to ancient story.

But what about the other questions(you avoid them ):

Q: But wait the most intelligent, wiser, most powerful being in the universe couldnt have thought of something else? How is that possible?

Q: Why did God not magically transformed his appearance just by saying the words?(he has endless ways to do this, he is all powerful and omniscient)

I have no reason to think God could not have thought something else. Probably He taught it was the best way to allow things go as they went.

Why do you think your idea would have been better?

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to 1213]

Yes, but that doesnt mean that it was commanded attack. It can be similar as saying, if you put your hand in fire, your hand will burn. If the person would have done what he should have, then the situation could have gone differently, he would not have been in same place with the lion at the same time. By what I know, Bible doesnt say God sent the lion, that seems to be purely from your imagination and it makes me wonder why you imagine such things to ancient story.

Q: Why are you trying to weasel out of this by avoiding key parts of my post?

So again:
This is your logic:
God said through an intermediary that something(Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me) will happen and then said: Nah, even though i said that he will be punished(by sending a lion) for disobedience, i will go against my word and not punish him(therefore i am a liar).

Q: What would be point in telling this story? (God is just a bully, God is a liar, God only threatens disobedient sinners for no reason, God likes to make empty threats like some weakling. This is more bad then following on your threats, because this shows lack of integrity and his word becomes meaningless, untrustworthy. )

Q: How making God a liar and saying practically that he had gone against his promise does the case more good, huh?




I have no reason to think God could not have thought something else. Probably He taught it was the best way to allow things go as they went.
Why do you think your idea would have been better?

Yeah but God knew beforehand that the neighbour will refuse to cut the prophet.

Q: Why not just say to the prophet to cut his own face?

Q: Why the need for violence, pointless nonsense(going around asking people to cut your face) when God could have made Ahab not recognize the prophet, he is omniscient, omnipotent?

This violence and this pointless nonsense is not compatible with supposedly the most intelligent, wise, and compassionate being in the universe.

[1213]

(by sending a lion)...

Bible doesnt say God sent the lion.

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to post 27 by 1213]

"Bible doesnt say God sent the lion."

Pfff...
What are you doing is quote mining.
Known apologetics tactic.
Taking things out of contest.

Yeah God didn't send the lion.
But prior to the lion killing the man, God said he will be punished for disobedience.
Then that didn't happened(God did not punished the man). Therefore God lied, made an empty threat.

So again:

Q: What would be point in telling this story? (God is just a bully, God is a liar, God only threatens disobedient sinners for no reason, God likes to make empty threats like some weakling. This is more bad then following on your threats, because this shows lack of integrity and his word becomes meaningless, untrustworthy. )

Q: How making God a liar and saying practically that he had gone against his promise does the case more good, huh?

[1213]

...God said he will be punished for disobedience.
...

Previously you quoted this:

A certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his fellow by the word of Yahweh, Please strike me. The man refused to strike him. Then said he to him, Because you have not obeyed the voice of Yahweh, behold, as soon as you are departed from me, a lion shall kill you. As soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and killed him. Then he found another man, and said, Please strike me. The man struck him, smiting and wounding him. So the prophet departed, and waited for the king by the way, and disguised himself with his headband over his eyes.
1 Kings 20:35-38

There is no, God said he will be punished for disobedience.

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to post 29 by 1213]

Previously you quoted this:

A certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his fellow by the word of Yahweh, Please strike me. The man refused to strike him. Then said he to him, Because you have not obeyed the voice of Yahweh, behold, as soon as you are departed from me, a lion shall kill you. As soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and killed him. Then he found another man, and said, Please strike me. The man struck him, smiting and wounding him. So the prophet departed, and waited for the king by the way, and disguised himself with his headband over his eyes.
1 Kings 20:35-38

There is no, God said he will be punished for disobedience

Seriously man?!!!
Cognitive dissonance has done a big number on you.

"In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time; performs an action that is contradictory to their beliefs, ideas, or values; or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas or values.[1][2]

Leon Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance focuses on how humans strive for internal consistency. An individual who experiences inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable, and is motivated to try to reduce this dissonance, as well as actively avoid situations and information likely to increase it."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

The text clearly says: Because you have not obeyed the voice of Yahweh, behold, as soon as you are departed from me, a lion shall kill you.

We have in the text the negation: not obeyed. Therefore we have the opposite of obedience: disobedience.
We have in the text the conjunction: because which means that for the reason of his disobedience God will punished him with the capital crime by means of an animal attack.

because
bkz/Submit
conjunction
for the reason that; since.
"we did it because we felt it our duty"
synonyms: since, as, for the reason that, in view of the fact that, owing to the fact that, seeing that/as
"his classmates liked him because he was very friendly"
informal
used to introduce a word or phrase that stands for a clause expressing an explanation or reason.
"there's probably somebody out there who would argue the point because Internet"


Conclusion:

There are only two possibilities:
1. God made an empty threat and did not killed theman for his disobedience, the animal attack was just a random event. Therefore God lied.
2. God followed on the threat and killed the man for his disobedience.