Bad things in religion

[nobspeople]

Why do you think God allows bad things to happen to people within religion (whichever religion you think is the right one)?

While it's true these things happen to people outside of religion, let's focus on those within religion.

Christians murder people, cheat on and with others (within or outside of said religion) and molest children, for starters, within a 'God fearing and loving religion'. Why do you think God allows that?

Wouldn't he want his flock to be a beacon unto the world for positive things instead of the end of a pointed and accusatory finger?
Or is the reason why God allows this is that he's working his miracle through all these sinful, hateful, terrible things that are done within his organization for his benefit?

Or is this religion a false religion that God doesn't associate with and thus, has no 'dog in the fight'?

[Diagoras]

But we have governments and citizens right now. I apologize, because perhaps I am just missing your point.

Likewise, it might just as easily be me missing yours.

Id like to think we see eye to eye on the personal belief that organised religion (man-made) is responsible for a lot of historical and modern injustice, persecution, xenophobia and related behaviour. And that this has come at a high cost in terms of wars, deaths and suffering.

From what Ive seen of your posts here, Id likely describe your personal philosophy as one that takes on the responsibility to lead an ethical life following Christ that aspires to the greater good.

If you replaced following Christ with without theism or other supernatural beliefs then you essentially get the definition of a humanist, which is how Id likely describe myself. My point being, that its possible to follow humanist principles with or without any belief in God, heaven, etc and that organised religion just gets in the way a lot of the time.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Why do you think God allows bad things to happen to people within religion (whichever religion you think is the right one)?

While it's true these things happen to people outside of religion, let's focus on those within religion.

Christians murder people, cheat on and with others (within or outside of said religion) and molest children, for starters, within a 'God fearing and loving religion'. Why do you think God allows that?

Wouldn't he want his flock to be a beacon unto the world for positive things instead of the end of a pointed and accusatory finger?
Or is the reason why God allows this is that he's working his miracle through all these sinful, hateful, terrible things that are done within his organization for his benefit?

Or is this religion a false religion that God doesn't associate with and thus, has no 'dog in the fight'?

I was thinking of this very subject just recently. It seems reasonable to me that a holy God would not tolerate unholy acts in any religion he has started. The Christian religion we are told was founded by Christ, the son of God, to bring salvation to all who would accept it. Considering such a vital message to bring about such a vital goal, the means by which that message is disseminated should be kept purer than Ivory Soap. If the Christian God exists, then Christianity's many flaws are very difficult to explain. It's much easier to just conclude that Christianity is the creation of men. Its corruption stems from the corrupt people who created it and perpetuate it.

[Paul of Tarsus]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

This seems like an appropriate time to bring up the free will defense.

God may desire His people to be "a beacon unto the world for positive things." However, God cannot force that upon people.

God cannot create people who are both free and not free.

God can create people who are morally free, and therefor capable of actual good works. But that also means that these people may do terrible things, like murder, abuse, etc.

Or God can create people who are not morally free. Such a person would never harm anyone else, never fail to do good in any setting, and always be a beacon of right behavior. However, that would be more a machine than a person. A machine is neither good nor bad; it just does as it is programed to do. For people to be capable of genuine good deeds they must also be capable of evil deeds.

Wonderful and moral machines are preferable to inquisitors as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, we are told in the Hebrew scriptures that God routinely punished the Jews for their alleged sin. He imposed force many times upon his "chosen people" to clean up their acts. I don't recall his tolerating their sin so he might preserve any free will on their parts. Since we are told that God does not change, you would think he would punish his followers today as he is said to have done long ago.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Christians murder people, cheat on and with others (within or outside of said religion) and molest children, for starters...

No they do not; people CLAIMING to be Christian do. A Christian is someone who follows Christ and respects his law.. . biblically speaking, anyone doing such things disqualifies himself in God's eyes from being a Christian.

In that case Stalin was not a true atheist because no true atheist would commit such atrocities. An atheist is someone who follows just rulers and respects the law.. . Atheistically speaking, anyone doing such things disqualifies himself in atheists' eyes from being an atheist.

[Paul of Tarsus]

And if demons couldn't be blamed then the easiest target is to blame us for everything that goes wrong.

Blaming people for what went wrong was a major issue brought up by the Jewish prophets. Due to the strategic location of Israel, it was constantly being conquered by more powerful nations like Babylon and Rome. The Jewish prophets could not accept that God would fail them so terribly, so the Jewish people were blamed for their plight. They were told that they needed to pray and observe the Torah, and then God would free them. Of course, all that praying and sheep slaughtering didn't free the Jews, so Satan was invented to try to explain Israel's being ruled by foreign powers.

[bjs1]

Wonderful and moral machines are preferable to inquisitors as far as I'm concerned.

Machines cannot be moral. They can be useful. That does not make them moral.

Anyway, we are told in the Hebrew scriptures that God routinely punished the Jews for their alleged sin. He imposed force many times upon his "chosen people" to clean up their acts. I don't recall his tolerating their sin so he might preserve any free will on their parts. Since we are told that God does not change, you would think he would punish his followers today as he is said to have done long ago.

Really? As far as I am aware God never removed free will from anyone in the OT. Bad actions had bad consequences. That has not changed. But God seemed to tolerate free will throughout the OT.

[brunumb]

As far as I am aware God never removed free will from anyone in the OT. Bad actions had bad consequences. That has not changed. But God seemed to tolerate free will throughout the OT.

So when the pharaoh was ready to capitulate to the demands of Moses but God hardened his heart making him change his mind, wasn't that a violation of his free will?

[Tcg]

As far as I am aware God never removed free will from anyone in the OT.

You've also forgotten about Jonah. Jonah didn't want to go to Nineveh, he was even willing to die to not do so. God used the big fish to thwart Jonah's not so free will.


Tcg

[Tcg]

As far as I am aware God never removed free will from anyone in the OT.

I don't recall him asking the serpent if he wanted to crawl on his belly and eat dust.

He didn't ask Eve if she wanted pains during childbirth to be severe.

He didn't ask Adam if he wanted the ground to contain thorns and thistles.

He didn't ask all but the eight onboard the ark if they didn't mind dying. He didn't even ask the eight if they wanted to be onboard.

What you are describing is the possibility to not suffer as long as you go along with God's coercion. That's not free will, that's succumbing to God's will or paying the price.

Of course there's no reason to believe any of these myths are true, but it is clear evidence that in the OT God removed free will from many at least according to the story.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

Christians murder people, cheat on and with others (within or outside of said religion) and molest children, for starters...

No they do not; people CLAIMING to be Christian do. A Christian is someone who follows Christ and respects his law.. . biblically speaking, anyone doing such things disqualifies himself in God's eyes from being a Christian.

In that case Stalin was not a true atheist because no true atheist would commit such atrocities. An atheist is someone who follows just rulers and respects the law.. . Atheistically speaking, anyone doing such things disqualifies himself in atheists' eyes from being an atheist.

... Is there an atheist canon of behaviour upon which you base your conclusion?