God's violent ways

[OnceConvinced]

The god of the bible tends do deal with sin and evil in very violent ways. Ie, wiping out cities, sending floods, ordering violent deaths, ordering the slaying of animals for sacrifices, sending curses and plagues, etc.

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-violent ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-violent methods used?

[tam]

Peace to you,

.

Perhaps some who post here as Theists do so to lead people astray (into believing false claims of special knowledge about God). Some even claim to hear directly from God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit).

Well, you don't sound like you are arguing against the idea of there being wolves in sheep's clothing. So perhaps you can understand my confusion as to why you are taking issue with my post?

It might relieve confusion to understand that I (and others) suspect that those who claim to hear the voice of God or Christ in their head are false prophets.

Yeah, but you (and others) also suspect there is no such thing as a "true prophet". That kind of renders a distinction of 'false' as meaningless, doesn't it?

(A false prophet is a someone who prophecies something false.)

My post was about the existence of wolves in sheep's clothing, something you seem to agree with but have taken issue with, simply because I am the one who posted it.



Peace again to you.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 220 by sorrento]

As Christians keep telling us that all men are sinners and considering that you said, "Anyone who breaks the smallest part of the God's law is guilty of breaking the whole law" does this mean that you consider yourself to be as evil as a paedophile mass-murdering serial rapist? Should I inform the authorities?

According to the Bible everyone in the entire world is as guilty as a paedophile mass-murdering serial rapist because everyone has broken the law of God. This is man's sin problem. Everyone is condemned to hell.

[JehovahsWitness]

According to the Bible everyone in the entire world is as guilty as a paedophile mass-murdering serial rapist because everyone has broken the law of God. This is man's sin problem. Everyone is condemned to hell.

Including Abraham? David? Joseph? Moses? Stephen? The Apostle Peter? Daniel? Did God view these men as evil?

• 
  ISAIAH 41:8
  
  But you, O Israel, ... the offspring of Abraham my friend.

  DANIEL 10:11
  O Daniel, you very precious man, give attention to the words that I am about to speak to you
  

  ACTS 13::22
  
  [God] raised up for them David as king, about whom he bore witness and said: I have found David the son of Jesse a man agreeable to my heart

Does it sound like God views these people as evil paedophiles?

EZEKIEL 14:14

Even if these three men"Noah, Daniel, and Job"were within it, they would be able to save only themselves because of their righteousness, declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

All scriptures NWT

[Willum]

[Replying to post 231 by JehovahsWitness]

Including Abraham? David? Joseph? Moses? Stephen? The Apostle Peter? Daniel? Did God view these men as evil?

Obviously. In most cases it was an important part of the story.
David, murderer, blasphemer.
Moses, murderer.

Being a bad guy seems to be a requirement for being a 'saint' in the Bible.

[Tcg]

ACTS 13::22

[God] raised up for them David as king, about whom he bore witness and said: I have found David the son of Jesse a man agreeable to my heart

That sounds about right:

• 2 Samuel 11:14 In the morning it happened that David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die.

David, the coward, has the honorable warrior Uriah murdered. A violent God would most certainly find a violent man agreeable to his heart.


Tcg

[sorrento]

[Replying to post 230 by EarthScienceguy]

You said, "According to the Bible everyone in the entire world is as guilty as a paedophile mass-murdering serial rapist because everyone has broken the law of God. This is man's sin problem. Everyone is condemned to hell."

Well no, everyone is not as guilty as the above. For a book to say such a thing just goes to show what a load of crock that book is, and to believe what it says tells me that person is extremely lacking in the self-esteem department.
Please don't try and tell me that all wrongdoings are equally wrong.
You may tar everyone with the same brush, but if you had to choose, who would you want to babysit your children, a paedophile or a dedicated nurse?
Life must be very difficult for you as your belief appears to require you to have a low opinion of yourself and everyone you come in contact with.

[OnceConvinced]

Take a quick look back at the Adam and Eve story; their actions had natural consequences - which is a good design,

Death. Pain at child birth. Hardships. Not just for the people who committed the offences but for all humans from there on in?

Do you think the descendants of criminals should also be punished?

unless of course you think we should be free to do whatever we choose without consequence,

I do not, but I it would be imorral to extend those consequences to innocent people.

even if we know it is going to cause harm to others. What kind of people would that design create?

In what way did eating from the trea in the Garden of Evil cause harm to anyone apart from maybe Adam and Eve themselves?

Had they repented and shown love to God and to one another; that would likely have been a different story

And where in the bible does it say this didn't happen?

In fact, Adam blamed both God and Eve for what he did.

They were both completely truthful and didn't try to deny it. And God also blamed Eve:

v17 To Adam he said, Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, You must not eat from it,

And then he punished all humans for all generations. Why should all generations have to pay for the acts of Adam and Eve?

Why could God have not designed the system so that natural consequences only had a negative affect on the people who committed the crimes?

But it's ludicrous to call it natural consequences. How does disobedience... how does sin result in death and suffering?

And he knew that he was doing wrong. Imagine such a person - with no thought or care for his wife or for the world he had been given or for his offspring - imagine such a person living forever without ever having consequences for his actions?

Yeah and imagine a system where everybody else gets punished along with the perpertrator? Oh we don't have to imagine that. According to the book of Genesis we have it.

Why would he change? Why and how would he learn? Adam would now learn through suffering (and it would be no different than the suffering that he subjected the world and his own offspring to suffer).

Why would he not learn through other means? Did God choose to make him that dense? That low in reasonig and intelligence?

So there was a reason for the discipline - to teach (which is what discipline IS). They were not shunned by God, though.

And what is the reason for forcing all his descendants to suffer the same consequences?

And sometimes violence IS necessary;

I agree that there are times when violence is necessary. However with Gold it seems to be his modus operandi.

the very act of creation is violent

And whose fault would that be? Who designed it to be that way?

- but that brought forth life and creation, so it was not bad. Violence is sometimes necessary also to protect life from being destroyed (and God is the One who would know). The flood is one such instance; Sodom and Gomorrah is another.

Do you really believe that acts of gencide are necessary?

[OnceConvinced]

Peace to you,

Nothing in the story states that limbs were removed from serpents. And the "serpent" in the garden is a seraph; an angel; a spirit being (a dragon; drakon). We can see this from what the Adversary is described as being: that ancient serpent; the dragon.


He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. Rev 20:2

Nothing in the story states that the snake was a seraph or an angel.

The serpent = drakon; it is in the etymology of the word. Regardless, we know from Revelation 20:2 that a serpent is also a dragon, and the Adversary is described as being such.

Is a dragon a wild animal?

In fact it quite cearly states it as a wild animal:

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, Did God really say, You must not eat from any tree in the garden?

Genesis 3:14
So the Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this,
Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

It says quite clearly its a wild animal not an angel and it also says they will now crawl on their belly.

Actually, it just says that it is more crafty than the wild animals.

No it doesn't. Read again:
ANY of the wild animals.
Cursed ABOVE ALL lifestock and wild animals.

It is clearly putting this snake in the category of wild animals. Why would this comparison even be made if this creature was not a wild animal? Why not just say he was craftier than any of God's creations? Surely that's what would be written? It makes no sense just to bring up wild animals and livestock. No sense at all, UNLESS the snake in this story was simply just a wild animal. One that talked.

The problem here is you are trying to take the NT and attempting to retrofit Satan into this story. It just doesn't work if you take these verses at face value.

Or it was no longer permitted to walk upright because it (its person; its moral character) was not upright.

So you want to turn it into a metaphor. Why not take the entire story as metaphorical and symbolic then?

And if this was an angel why did God curse all snakes?

I'm sorry, but where in the story does it say that God cursed all snakes? Or even all serpents?

Have you ever seen a snake that doesn't crawl around in the dirt?

This is a "Just so" story, Tam. A whole pile of just so stories:

How did the Earth get here?
How did we get here?
How did evil come into the world?
Why do humans wear clothes?
Why dont snakes have legs?
Why must women be subservient to man?
Why does woman suffer pain at child birth?
Why is life so tough?
Why do our bodies turn to dust when we die?

They were clearly intended to stimulate people's imagination and to entertain them. I doubt any of it was intended to be taken as real history.
Do you?

[OnceConvinced]

I am glad you are getting the point. God is a holy God small sin or large sin makes not difference the judgement is still the same.

So every one who sins deserves to be torn apart by bears?

Yes, I am well aware that there is a belief in Christianity that all sins are equal. That telling a white lie is as evil as raping and torturing a child. However we are also aware that is a highly immoral teaching. Not all sins are equal.

And the same is still true today. Any one who breaks the smallest part of the God's law is guilty of breaking the whole law. You may say this is unfair,

I say more than that. I say it's immoral. Civilised society sees it the same way. It's why a person who say shop lifts gets a lighter sentence than say a murderer. It seems only people who follow old outdated barbaric ways would see it as moral and just.

This teaching is now one of the reasons I can't take the bible seriously and I cannot in all good conscience accept it as a moral guide.

but you say that only because you live in a world in which there are laws enforced. Without the enforcement of law then you would see the depth of depravity that is in man. And that is what hell will be.

I believe that most people have empathy in compassion. We are capable of working out for ourselves that harmful acts are not good. You have a much more bleak view of humanity than I do. Is that because you would be an evil person if you didnt' have a god with big stick standing over you? Would you be one of those depraved people?

[Clownboat]

Take a quick look back at the Adam and Eve story; their actions had natural consequences - which is a good design,

Death. Pain at child birth. Hardships. Not just for the people who committed the offences but for all humans from there on in?

Do you think the descendants of criminals should also be punished?

Come on OC, the Bible is clear on this!

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers, every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Except when it is not clear...

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers, that they do not rise, nor posses the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.