Jesus' Return

[William]

If there is one belief that seems to thread throughout Christian beliefs as commonly shared, it is that of the return of Jesus.

In pondering on this idea, I am left wondering as to the relevance of it as a belief to hold in today's day and age.

I can understand that up to the age of technology and especially this age of information [the information age] such a belief would not have been able to be easily regarded as overly questionable, but with our current knowledge of the universe we can understand that should the promised event happen, people would be more inclined to regard it as explainable in terms of our current knowledge.

What this means is that if an army of beings descended upon the planet, we would naturally understand these as being extraterrestrial.

In regard to that, we would also be less likely to believe any claims that they were our creators in the sense of having to proclaim them as 'gods' and their leader as 'god' or the representative thereof. In this case, Jesus.

If indeed these beings then got about 'cleaning up the world' of the corrupt war-mongering humans in positions of power, and set up a workable system in which parity becomes the normal, and gave peace a chance, there would still be no reason to worship these beings, (or the single leader) as if they were gods.

If we look at it another way - say humans were the ET and did this to another planetary species - would we not simply consider this to be something we decided we ought to do, and discourage the planets people from worshiping us?

Sure, we would not scorn their respect, and their gratefulness for us using our superior technology and power to overcome those who suppressed them and kept them engaged in systems of disparity, but there would be no reason for us to condone, let alone make it a stipulation that they ought worship us as gods.

Yet the belief through Christian doctrine clearly tells us that this is a stipulation, and those who do not agree to it will be separated from those who do.

It seems to me that there would be a problem with today's current population accepting such stipulation on the grounds that the opportunity afforded by the ET allow for the ability to build a system of parity doesn't and shouldn't require any of us worship the ET as gods. If it did, then the only reason they 'saved' us was so that they could become our new masters, and blackmail us with either accepting their terms or going without.

Q: In relation to the above, how would you respond to ET demanding you worship them as gods, and why?

[William]

[Replying to post 30 by 1213]

It has been said in this thread that worship = gratitude. If that were the case, then showing gratitude to anyone would be worship.

How does one 'bow down' to GOD? GOD is formless. GOD is not an object.

[1213]

[Replying to post 30 by 1213]

It has been said in this thread that worship = gratitude. If that were the case, then showing gratitude to anyone would be worship.

How does one 'bow down' to GOD? GOD is formless. GOD is not an object.

I think the meaning of bow down is to submit or perhaps to surrender is better, because submit means also send. If, as I think, it means to surrender or to accept Gods authority, it can be done, even if God is not physical being. Kneeling itself is not necessary same, because one can be kneeler and still not really surrender.

[William]

[Replying to post 32 by 1213]

I think the meaning of bow down is to submit or perhaps to surrender is better, because submit means also send. If, as I think, it means to surrender or to accept Gods authority, it can be done, even if God is not physical being. Kneeling itself is not necessary same, because one can be kneeler and still not really surrender.

So given the scenario of the OP (be they 'ET' or 'inter-dimensional beings' matters not) the idea in that is to surrender to the new system which has forcibly replaced the old corrupt ones, effecting what would be considered "The Kingdom of GOD" and in that, there is no actual knee-bending or declaration of anyone being 'GOD' or expectancy that a representative of GOD would be enthroned as an object of worship?

Specifically, what is being surrendered to (aka 'worshiped') is the new system which is declared as 'GODs system' and in that one would expect parity throughout?

[Jagella]

Q: In relation to the above, how would you respond to ET demanding you worship them as gods, and why?

I'd worship the ET as gods to save my skin if need be or if there was some obvious benefit in doing so. The gods we have created are not like these ETs. Unlike a lot of people, I see no need to worship any of the gods people believe in. I see no reason to fear these supposed gods and see no benefit in worshiping them. If these gods were real, then they would have no need for us to worship them either. They're gods, after all! Gods don't need anything from us puny little mortals.

"Puny little mortals," on the other hand, do need things from other puny little mortals like money, sex, and power. The Bible god demands that those who supposedly speak for him be given these things. So guess what? In case you haven't figured it out already, puny little mortals masquerade as the mouthpieces of this god to bamboozle people into giving them money, sex, and power.

[Jagella]

It does not seem to me that angels (spirit beings) - are going to demand worship. At least not those angels who are loyal to Christ and to His Father. If people did intend to bow down and worship them instead (or as well), then it seems to me - and according to the example of the angel (Michael) above - that the angels would immediately tell people NOT to do that.

What if an ET masqueraded as Christ? You don't know what Christ looks like, so an ET might fool you into worshiping it.

But like I mention above, if any gods or Christs exist, they would not demand worship or anything else from us. They wouldn't need anything from us puny little mortals. Christ demanding worship from us makes as much sense as you demanding worship from your cat!

What does make sense is people pretending to speak for a god or Christ. That way they can get what they want from other people assuming those other people believe them. That's why Christ is always quoted as demanding belief--those who put those words into his mouth knew that they needed people to believe them so that they could get what they want from people.

[Jagella]

There are two main problems with the claim that Jesus is going to return. The first is expecting someone who lived 2,000 years ago to return, defies all common knowledge and experience. The second problem, is that the claim has a 2,000 year ongoing history of proving to be nonsense. Just as common experience and common knowledge have always indicated. After 2,000 years even the slowest individuals should reasonably begin to catch on.

Well, obviously, but those who created Christ didn't give up easily. To combat this common sense, they came up with the following: 2 Peter 3:8:

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So our common-sense idea of a reasonable amount of time for a prophecy to be fulfilled is completely obscured by our being told an obvious falsehood. A thousand years is never a day and Christ will never return if he ever existed at all.

[Jagella]

I believe there will come time, when ET comes and demands worshiping. I believe he should not be worshiped.

Reason why I wouldnt want to do that is, I want to be loyal to Bible God, who doesnt demand worshiping. He expects people to be righteous and those who are, will have eternal life as a gift.

First, the Bible god does presumably demand worship. See Deuteronomy 12:4.

Second, how would you know the difference between ET and the Bible god? We don't know what either one looks like.

[Jagella]

The first thing we would need to grasp properly is: What is meant by the biblical understanding of worship? It isn't what most think it is! So, to put it in simple terms "worship" means to have gratitude towards someone. Thus, being in a frame of mind of devotion or ardent attachment or loyalty to that someone. But, gratitude for what?

An all-mighty, perfect god would have no need for gratitude. If you feed birds, do you expect them to show gratitude? Those who created the gods do expect gratitude because they want or need it. They put the words demanding worship or gratitude into the mouths of the gods.

[William]

[Replying to post 34 by Jagella]

I'd worship the ET as gods to save my skin if need be or if there was some obvious benefit in doing so.

Some kinds of benefit can attract that kind of behavior and some cannot?

The gods we have created are not like these ETs.

Well I got the idea from Christians, so...

Unlike a lot of people, I see no need to worship any of the gods people believe in.

Unless, of course, to save one's skin if need be or if there was some obvious benefit in doing so.

I see no reason to fear these supposed gods and see no benefit in worshiping them.

Assuming of course, this fits the criteria re skin-saving...without knowing what benefits and alternate choices one is offered... to convince one to bow and to worship, or abstain...

...The idea is that a battle between the puny human Government ends their reign over us by being totally defeated by the ET, and in style.

The idea that the people of the world are allowed the opportunity to create a system of parity and live that way.

Those rejecting? Not mentioned in the OP - although from memory, one interpretation of the story has it that those who refuse will be left outside the gates, to fend for themselves - remaining tribal and creating/continuing with, systems of disparity.

Those inside the gates have all the benefits of ET technology and 'happy joy joy' - a chance to build without the tribal dogs of war wanting to run things and dictate the terms.

If these gods were real, then they would have no need for us to worship them either. They're gods, after all! Gods don't need anything from us puny little mortals.

We are not told why they need us PLM's...only why we need these gods. Perhaps for such, 'need' is not the issue?

However, showing one is loyal, appears to be.

"Puny little mortals," on the other hand, do need things from other puny little mortals like money, sex, and power. The Bible god demands that those who supposedly speak for him be given these things. So guess what? In case you haven't figured it out already, puny little mortals masquerade as the mouthpieces of this god to bamboozle people into giving them money, sex, and power.

That is also covered in the Christian beliefs. The GOD of the Bible will be different from how he has been portrayed by the rulers of the world.

[Replying to post 35 by Jagella]

What if an ET masqueraded as Christ? You don't know what Christ looks like, so an ET might fool you into worshiping it.

Good thinking! But the conundrum! Best not to worship it then, and take the consequences? Or worship it, if it saves one's skin... if one doesn't wish to be part of the tribal systems outside of the gates.

But like I mention above, if any gods or Christs exist, they would not demand worship or anything else from us. They wouldn't need anything from us puny little mortals. Christ demanding worship from us makes as much sense as you demanding worship from your cat!

Why not! Lord knows we have been worshiping them for eons already! It is about time they worshiped us don't ya think!?

^..^(*)

Seriously though, it may still get down to choices, as per those blinkin' prophetic utterances. The idea is obviously to see the benefits and go with those...whichever side of the gate one decides upon.

That's why Christ is always quoted as demanding belief--those who put those words into his mouth knew that they needed people to believe them so that they could get what they want from people.

In the case of ET, there would be evidence a-plenty so no need for belief anymore.
It would get down to "are you going to worship us as your gods, or leave the land? Your choice."


[Replying to post 36 by Jagella]

Well, obviously, but those who created Christ didn't give up easily. To combat this common sense, they came up with the following: 2 Peter 3:8:

Quote:
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


So our common-sense idea of a reasonable amount of time for a prophecy to be fulfilled is completely obscured by our being told an obvious falsehood. A thousand years is never a day and Christ will never return if he ever existed at all.

Points to ponder are that the choice of leaving off doing anything until this current age allows for the opportunity of the ET not to be misunderstood as 'gods of old' in terms of human beliefs. We would all be able to understand that they are ET. Even arguing they might be 'inter dimensional beings' doesn't change that.
We will know without a doubt that these ET's are not gods but are giving us the choice to worship them as gods anyway and remain within the gates of the land...or depart.

[Replying to post 37 by Jagella]

First, the Bible god does presumably demand worship. See Deuteronomy 12:4.

Second, how would you know the difference between ET and the Bible god? We don't know what either one looks like.

Therein your choice would be easy. yes? Remain tribal. Stay outside the gates.

[Replying to post 38 by Jagella]
Jagella

An all-mighty, perfect god would have no need for gratitude. If you feed birds, do you expect them to show gratitude? Those who created the gods do expect gratitude because they want or need it. They put the words demanding worship or gratitude into the mouths of the gods.

We are talking ET playing the role of an all-mighty perfect god...whatever that even means...so no, they would obviously regard human beings as more than simply their puny pets or wild animals or ignorant fools and would expect our gratitude for saving them from the tribal leadership of humanity and allowing us the opportunity to build parity and live together in peace and harmony. This is conditional, of course. You must worship them as your gods.

[tam]

Peace to you,

It does not seem to me that angels (spirit beings) - are going to demand worship. At least not those angels who are loyal to Christ and to His Father. If people did intend to bow down and worship them instead (or as well), then it seems to me - and according to the example of the angel (Michael) above - that the angels would immediately tell people NOT to do that.

What if an ET masqueraded as Christ? You don't know what Christ looks like, so an ET might fool you into worshiping it.

His sheep listen to His voice. His sheep know Him and He knows them; they know His voice.

His sheep will run from the voice of a stranger. But they will come when He calls them.

So it is important to know His voice. To walk by faith (faith is based upon what is heard) and not by sight.

But like I mention above, if any gods or Christs exist, they would not demand worship or anything else from us. They wouldn't need anything from us puny little mortals. Christ demanding worship from us makes as much sense as you demanding worship from your cat!

Perhaps, though that does not mean that God would not be owed this. That also does not mean that we would not feel/are not compelled to worship God, out of LOVE. Gratitude. Respect.

What does make sense is people pretending to speak for a god or Christ. That way they can get what they want from other people assuming those other people believe them.

You are correct that some (even many) people do this. Religions do this as well. Saying, 'come to me', 'listen to me', 'follow me', all the while referring to themselves.


But one who serves Christ is meant to be bearing witness to HIM. Telling people to come to Christ, to listen to Him, to follow Him. Not to themselves, not to some religion, not to some other religious leader (other than Christ).

That's why Christ is always quoted as demanding belief--those who put those words into his mouth knew that they needed people to believe them so that they could get what they want from people.

I'm not sure that makes sense Jagella.

The words Christ spoke are that we are to come to Him; to listen to Him, to follow Him, to obey HIS commands. To take HIS yoke upon us. He never told us that anyone else was the truth. He is the mediator between man and God. We need only listen to Him.


I would suggest to you instead that it is people who want to listen to man instead of to Christ (and God). They want to walk by sight. Choosing to listen to men instead of to God (and His Son) is not new. Jeremiah wrote about it as well:

A horrible and shocking thing
has happened in the land:

The prophets prophesy lies,
the priests rule by their own authority,

and my people love it this way."


It is the same with many today.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy