Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?
For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #341BTW, I'm not trying the strawman anyone. I welcome the clarification. However, please be aware I'm trying to simplify, by use of consolidation.
Okay, but this grace is not unconditional then. Seems as though your answer is still D). Keep in mind what I stated, at the top.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:31 am We have freewill and can resist the holy spirit, thus resist the grace of God.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #342Eternal life is promised only for righteous, in the Bible. If person doesn't become righteous, it doesn't matter if the sins are forgiven.
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Old version can be read from here:
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Old version can be read from here:
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #343According to the Bible, the term "righteous" is synonymous with 'faithful". Since this is the case, is the answer B)?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #344Sorry, I have not seen Bible saying that.
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Old version can be read from here:
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIkqxC ... xtqFY/view
Old version can be read from here:
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #345It would seem so. According to Paul righteousness is what Abraham had before the Law was given and that was Godfaith. This was switched to Faith in Jesus rather than in God but the principle remains Faith rather than works. I've already hammered at the point that Paul expected Faith to make people saints and when it didn't, he warned that sinning could lose salvation.
So we have to scan the NT for clues as to how a sinner can get back into grace. Jesus can forgive sins and Faith is the first thing. Then repentance with the supposed intent to Sin no more. I leave it to Church doctrine to say how many strikes before you're out, and I'll leave others to muse on the remarkably persistent idea that you can pretty much sin as you like provided you donate an amount commensurate with the gravity of the sin. I'll leave it there and won't get into what can be forgiven and how, how often and how much, much less God giving no guarantees but whatever is forgiven by the red shoes of St Peter is forgiven in heaven. Just saying how the NT seems to me to say how Forgiveness works.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #346I have already spelled this out, a few times now (Romans 3):
Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
**********************
Are you ready to select answer B) now?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #347POI wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:52 pmI have already spelled this out, a few times now (Romans 3):
Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
**********************
Are you ready to select answer B) now?
Exactly. We either confess that Jesusfaith (1) is the parameter that makes us 'Righteous' and is the key to salvation (if God feels in the mood to grant it) or the Believer rejects Paul and creates a dogma (and religion) of their own which is not based on the teachings of Paul, whether or not he got them from the disciples or out of his own head.
(1) that is, as I gather from Paul, believing in the resurrection of Jesus, the key having the shedding of blood as the mechanism, the sacrifice to death as the electronics, and belief in the resurrection of Jesus the card that opens the lock.
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #348POI wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:52 pmI have already spelled this out, a few times now (Romans 3):
Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
Synonym = a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close. If Bible tells righteousness is given through faith, it does not make it synonymous.
My new book can be read freely from here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIkqxC ... xtqFY/view
Old version can be read from here:
http://web.archive.org/web/202212010403 ... x_eng.html
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIkqxC ... xtqFY/view
Old version can be read from here:
http://web.archive.org/web/202212010403 ... x_eng.html
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #3491213 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:18 amPOI wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:52 pmI have already spelled this out, a few times now (Romans 3):
Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
Synonym = a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language, for example shut is a synonym of close. If Bible tells righteousness is given through faith, it does not make it synonymous.
I'm starting to get the impression you are avoiding what I keep saying. You are trying to find your way out.
If Jesus deems you 'faithful', Jesus then also deems you "righteous". Based upon Romans 3, is it safe to now conclude the answer to the OP question is B)?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #350Being able to resist grace has nothing to do with if the grace is conditional or not. He gives grace unconditionally to everyone. We can choose to resist that or not.POI wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:31 pm BTW, I'm not trying the strawman anyone. I welcome the clarification. However, please be aware I'm trying to simplify, by use of consolidation.
Okay, but this grace is not unconditional then. Seems as though your answer is still D). Keep in mind what I stated, at the top.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:31 am We have freewill and can resist the holy spirit, thus resist the grace of God.