Can we find good in God?

[marco]

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger. He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

[rikuoamero]

1213 says

In my opinion God is good and righteous and all of his judgments are good.

1213, I'd like to ask a question.
Is there an action or set of actions that God can take, where he 'crosses the line' so to speak, and thus ends up being considered bad, unrighteous, by you?
Is there an action or set of actions that any other person in your life can take, where they 'cross the line'?

[William]

[Replying to post 35 by marco]

I am blissfully unaware of having pronounced anything of the sort. I was discussing Yahweh.

Yes - and you were also discussing the things in the world which are not altogether pleasant.

And in the broader view we can see that life is both pleasant and unpleasant. One may ask if we can find good in life.

See?

The assumption that this Yahweh being created life on earth, such as your writing;

"You say he gave us fruit; you've been told much of the fruit he offered is poisonous." you accentuate the negative while turning a blind eye re anything positive, which was what I was pointing out in my last post.

Your lack of delineating and method of twisting the details does not help your argument.

Your blissful ignorance in being unaware of having pronounced anything of the sort has to do in the idea that if there are no redeeming features in the creator , then the same would have to be said of the creation.

Your twisting the facts of the story through the medium of the lens of your underlying bias does nothing to help your argument.
Poisonous fruits do exist, but it is a bit of a stretch to claim the story has the GOD offering such.

I gave a picture of Yahweh as Yahweh is painted...

That is the point though. Its not 'as Yahweh is painted' but more the case of 'how marco wants to paint the picture.'

[marco]

And in the broader view we can see that life is both pleasant and unpleasant. One may ask if we can find good in life.

See?

No I don't see. We are discussing Yahweh not the best restaurants in town. You are simply diverting the discussion from Yahweh to a topic of your choice.

Your blissful ignorance in being unaware of having pronounced anything of the sort has to do in the idea that if there are no redeeming features in the creator , then the same would have to be said of the creation.

This is patently false. A wicked father can have saintly children. We are, I repeat, discussing Yahweh.

I gave a picture of Yahweh as Yahweh is painted...

That is the point though. Its not 'as Yahweh is painted' but more the case of 'how marco wants to paint the picture.'

You are getting close to answering the OP. I offered my view on Yahweh and disclosed that I see him as lacking in good qualities. I called for evidence from the OT that would contradict my view. I would welcome that. At the moment I seem to be discussing some variant of pantheism in which Yahweh has been given the court jester's part.

[marco]

1213 says

In my opinion God is good and righteous and all of his judgments are good.

1213, I'd like to ask a question.
Is there an action or set of actions that God can take, where he 'crosses the line' so to speak, and thus ends up being considered bad, unrighteous, by you?

I think from answers given here that many believe that what God decrees and does is, by definition, good. He wants infants battered to death - then we can conclude the infants were wicked or God had a good plan for them or they might have grown into Attila the Hun. What we would ordinarily condemn as monstrous we find that, when God does it, it becomes wonderful.

A good example is that he told his boy to hand himself over, get lashed and crucified so that he could demonstrate a new type of love. Tough love. Killing baby boys is horrendous? No, not if they are Egyptian and God does it. Then it's an act of generosity. So all God's judgments are good, all his actions are good and our wisdom, you will recall, is but foolishness with God. Folly cannot judge.

[tam]

Peace to you Marco!

His promises of life .....

Promises are not actions. They are unfulfilled in the future.

(I think you meant to write that they are fulfilled in the future)


The point was not about the promise of life in the future, per se. The gift of life had already been given with the creation of life, even including eternal life (via access to the Tree of Life). The point was that the promise was not just for us, as individual people, but also for our loved ones; our households.

Life.
Eternal life.
Eternal life also for our loved ones; households.

The examples I gave were evidence for that final point, showing the good in God. God has shown us, by what He has already done, that the promise is for our loved ones as well. So we do not need to be afraid that we will be invited into the Kingdom, but our loved ones, cast out.

There is evidence of this in the NT as well, and of course in love as well, but you only want the OT, so I shared some of those OT examples of this.

We can see that God saves us and our children from some OT examples: such as Noah's faith saving him AND his household; of Rahab's faith saving her and her household. The blood of the lamb on the doorposts of the homes of Israelites in Egypt caused Death to pass over the ENTIRE house (and so the entire household was saved from death). The covenant with Abraham saved his entire household (and offspring).

These are not unambiguous acts of kindness.

We can go through each incident if you like (though I may save that for a different post). But these were listed as examples of God saving a man's (or woman's) loved ones as well as the man (or woman) of faith.


Can you not see love (and good) in that... as well as in the One who gives it?

The background noise that you mention is most often the result of man's actions (or inaction)... and the consequences that have come as a result of NOT listening to God. Of not showing mercy; of man oppressing his fellow man; of man not loving his fellow man; of man not feeding the poor; or not clothing the naked; or not breaking every yoke; or not doing away with the pointing finger and malicious talk. Etc, etc.

The Lord will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.[/color]

This is poetry. In reality there is no water for thirsty children and no help for his people in the Holocaust. Some rich people today may well enjoy these amenities, but they don't come from God.

I think perhaps you may have overlooked that the promise above was dependent upon men (in this particular case, Israel) doing all that was written in Isaiah 58, that I copied above.



But that the things God instructs and desires shows HIS nature being love - since all of those things in Isaiah 58 (and other places) are of love.



Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

(I think you meant to write that they are fulfilled in the future)

I certainly didn't mean to write "fulfilled" Tam. A conditional clause, in grammar, unfulfilled in the future is of the form: "If I were to do this, something would happen..." and the promises are like this. Okay, my fault for being obscure.

The point was not about the promise of life in the future, per se. The gift of life had already been given with the creation of life, even including eternal life (via access to the Tree of Life). The point was that the promise was not just for us, as individual people, but also for our loved ones; our households.

Well that's a piece of private correspondence to which I don't have access. If we regard everything as a "gift" we are already answering every question. One generally takes a gift to be a benefit: fine for those whose lives display advantages. Some poor souls cannot consider life as a gift.

The background noise that you mention is most often the result of man's actions (or inaction)... and the consequences that have come as a result of NOT listening to God.

I don't believe this is true in general. The world groans with unfortunates whose sufferings are no fault of their own. God's geographical or meteorological conditions impose harsh situations on some. Just read the news.

I think perhaps you may have overlooked that the promise above was dependent upon men (in this particular case, Israel) doing all that was written in Isaiah 58, that I copied above.

I am aware that God's "gifts" come with harsh conditions.

Your obvious faith shines through all your writing and in many ways I envy you as I recall the enthusiasm with which I once served the Bethlehem baby, who grew away from me. There are no suitable replacements.

May your God overwhelm you and yours for your lovely, loyal service to him with happiness and health in the coming year.

[wiploc]

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger. He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

The world contains evil. Necessarily, then, an omnipotent omniscient creator is evil in the degree that the world is.

There is much good in the world too, though. So, if there were an omnipotent omniscient creator god, he would contain much good just as he would contain much evil.

[marco]

The world contains evil. Necessarily, then, an omnipotent omniscient creator is evil in the degree that the world is.

There is much good in the world too, though. So, if there were an omnipotent omniscient creator god, he would contain much good just as he would contain much evil.

The problem of God having created evil has tortured the minds of theologians for centuries. That we have exactly the scattering of good and evil we would expect on a chance distribution suggests not that God doesn't play dice but that chance is God.
But the evil in the OT has little to do with an eternal deity, I think, and more to do with nomadic preoccupation with victory, violence and revenge. So he's short on good deeds.

Best wishes.

[tam]

Peace again to you Marco!

(I think you meant to write that they are fulfilled in the future)

I certainly didn't mean to write "fulfilled" Tam. A conditional clause, in grammar, unfulfilled in the future is of the form: "If I were to do this, something would happen..." and the promises are like this. Okay, my fault for being obscure.

Not at all. You were not obscure; I simply misunderstood. Thank you for explaining.

The point was not about the promise of life in the future, per se. The gift of life had already been given with the creation of life, even including eternal life (via access to the Tree of Life). The point was that the promise was not just for us, as individual people, but also for our loved ones; our households.

Well that's a piece of private correspondence to which I don't have access. If we regard everything as a "gift" we are already answering every question. One generally takes a gift to be a benefit: fine for those whose lives display advantages. Some poor souls cannot consider life as a gift.

But it is not a private correspondence that you do not have access to. I listed examples from the OT as evidence for it.

The background noise that you mention is most often the result of man's actions (or inaction)... and the consequences that have come as a result of NOT listening to God.

I don't believe this is true in general. The world groans with unfortunates whose sufferings are no fault of their own. God's geographical or meteorological conditions impose harsh situations on some. Just read the news.

Some people suffer through no fault of their own, that is true... but most of them are still suffering because of man and his action or inaction.

I think perhaps you may have overlooked that the promise above was dependent upon men (in this particular case, Israel) doing all that was written in Isaiah 58, that I copied above.

I am aware that God's "gifts" come with harsh conditions.

What harsh conditions were attached to the gift in Isaiah 58?

God said that they were to break every yoke, free the oppressed, share their food with the hungry, shelter the wanderer, stop the malicious talk and the pointing finger, etc. Then they would call to Him and He would answer.

Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter"
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.



How are these harsh conditions? These are just things that love would do, and these are the things that God desires.

Your obvious faith shines through all your writing and in many ways I envy you as I recall the enthusiasm with which I once served the Bethlehem baby, who grew away from me. There are no suitable replacements.

Marco, your kindness makes me reluctant to argue with you at all, lol. So I hope you take what I share with you as discussion. You started this thread asking if we could find good in God, in the OT. But each time someone lists an example of something good, you turn your focus to the bad. Why do you do that?

God gave us life; even eternal life (and whether you believe that to be reality or not, that is what is written in the OT. Adam and Eve had been given life, as well as the tree of Life to eat from, and they - and their offspring - would not have died, except that they sought something else, something 'more' than all that they had been given. And they had been given a LOT.)


How can that not be one of the greatest pieces of evidence of the good in Him? The love in Him?

May your God overwhelm you and yours for your lovely, loyal service to him with happiness and health in the coming year.

I thank you, as always, for your kindness Marco.

May you and your loved ones have peace, true peace as my Lord gives peace,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[1213]

Is there an action or set of actions that God can take, where he 'crosses the line' so to speak, and thus ends up being considered bad, unrighteous, by you?

Lies and injustice are unrighteous and evil things, by what the Bible tells and by what I understand to be good and right. If God would be guilty to those, He would not be righteous.