The Central Problem with Christianity

[Diogenes]

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.

__ Matthew 6:19-20

[JehovahsWitness]

THE POINT is that the advice to not marry and not be encumbered with possessions is because they thought the world was coming to an end very soon and the only thing they should concentrate on was the end of the world which made every other concern frivolous.

If that was your point you would have done better NOT to attempt to support it using dubious or unfounded hyperbole.

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry.

Jesus did not tell "people" to give away their possessions he told one man to. And Paul did not teach that people should not marry.

[JehovahsWitness]

THE POINT is that the central prophesy of Jesus was false.

That would depend on what one believes "central prophesy was" and how one interprets it playing out. Proving a prophecy false is really not as simple as one might think.

There WAS no apocalypse.

If Jesus was prophecying about the destruction of Jerusalem, and the end of the Jewish temple based system of worship, arguably ... there was.





JW

[TRANSPONDER]

THE POINT is that the advice to not marry and not be encumbered with possessions is because they thought the world was coming to an end very soon and the only thing they should concentrate on was the end of the world which made every other concern frivolous.

If that was your point you would have done better NOT to attempt to support it using dubious or unfounded hyperbole.

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry.

Jesus did not tell "people" to give away their possessions he told one man to. And Paul did not teach that people should not marry.

Do you know, I think you are wrong? Jesus told one man to dish out his dosh and follow him. That is presumably relevant advice to anyone else who wants eternal life. Please explain why you think that advice related only to that young man and to nobody else.

And Paul did, in effect, teach that people should not marry. That is his message. Of course some can't help getting married; he accepts that, but it doesn't alter the teaching that it's better if they didn't. Can you explain just why you think Paul is not sending out that message?

I trust that you aren't just playing the 'He did not exactly say those words' gambit which I've seen a few times. The sense even in paraphrase is what matters, not what exact words were used.

[1213]

...
It's all there in the gospel of Mark, once the Christian edits have been removed.

Isn't the whole NT "Christian edit", who else would have done it than "Christians"?

But, why should I believe the "Christian edits" are not what Jesus wanted to the Bible?

[1213]

...The OP asks why Christians pursue wealth? As I'm sure (you and I) agree, Jesus frowns upon material wealth. I would also imagine you possess some type of wealth, for which Jesus would not like. How do you justify/rationalize possessing such wealth, if you also know Jesus does not like such wealth?

In other words, why do you actively maintain and procure wealth, in spite of Jesus's teachings?

I don't think I am wealthy, but, as I think I already said, followers of Jesus can get many things, material things just should not be more important than God for example. Wealth can be a byproduct of doing good things, without intention to get wealth.

Jesus said, “Most assuredly I tell you, there is no one who has left house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or land, for my sake, and for the gospel’s sake, but he will receive one hundred times more now in this time, houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and land, with persecutions; and in the age to come eternal life.
Mark 10:29-30

But, I think some "Christians" may be greedy and follow money rather than God. I think it is sad and I think it is good if you remind them of what Jesus said.

[JehovahsWitness]

...Jesus told one man to dish out his dosh and follow him. That is presumably relevant advice to anyone else who wants eternal life.

I am not particularly interested in your presumptions, assumptions, guesses or beliefs; if you have a claim to make feel free to support it with something other than rhetoric. The fact is the bible does not contain Jesus making a general rule of anything except not to seek riches before the kingdom.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

... Of course some can't help getting married; he accepts that, but it doesn't alter the teaching that it's better if they didn't.

IS IT BAD FOR A CHRISTIAN TO MARRY?





Both Paul and Jesus taught that if possible it would indeed be better from a spiritual point of view to remain single so as to fully focus on spiritual things. The contrast, however was not between good and bad but between good and better.

1 CORINTHIANS 7:38 NWT
whoever marries does well, but whoever does not marry will do better.

... Of course some can't help getting married; he accepts that, but it doesn't alter the teaching that it's better if they didn't.

Saying it is better not to marry (if one feels able) is a far cry from implying, as some have done in this thread, that singleness is a Christian requirement or that married Christians are ignoring a biblical prohibition or warning (admonition) which compromises their claims to be genuine followers of Christ.

They also ignore the admonition not to marry.

.. it is marriage itself and wealth itself that is considered a no-no.

[POI]

I don't think I am wealthy

What would be Jesus's definition of 'wealth'? And how do you know?

I think it would be fair to say Jesus would deem you as wealthy. Do you own electronic devices? Yes. Do you possess any wants? I'm sure you do. Do you have a bank account? Likely so. Is Jesus okay with your current classification? I doubt it.

Any time you are paying attention to <material wealth>, you are taking your focus off of 'God'. The more wealth you own, the more times you are distracted by this material wealth.

You being a Christian, I find it peculiar, as I'm sure 'Diogenes' does as well, that you have not given away most of your <material wealth> to instead fully focus your energy on Jesus/God?

material things just should not be more important than God for example.

Any time you focus any of your efforts on any of these material items, you are not placing your sole efforts on 'God'. Hence, the less of this <material wealth> you have, the less of a chance you will place any of this energy on such <material wealth>. As a Christian, why not be safe, and give most/all of this <material wealth> away?

Wealth can be a byproduct of doing good things, without intention to get wealth.

Sure. But as a Christian, seems it would be wise to then get rid of this newly obtained <material wealth>, as to not remove the sole focus off of God -- not even for a second.

But, I think some "Christians" may be greedy and follow money rather than God. I think it is sad and I think it is good if you remind them of what Jesus said.

Any time you interact, engage, or think about any type or form or <material wealth>, you are then not placing your sole focus on 'God'. As a Christian, it might be wise to get rid of all of it; as it can only distract you. What do you say?

[oldbadger]

Isn't the whole NT "Christian edit", who else would have done it than "Christians"?

But, why should I believe the "Christian edits" are not what Jesus wanted to the Bible?

There are many different Creeds in Christianity, 1213. eg...I believe in Jesus, but certainly not in Christianity.

Let me give you an example of a Christian edit....or maybe two.
The very first verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of Mark was changed after the earliest copies that we have.
NIV Bible: Mark : 1 1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[1] the Son of God,

The inclusion of [1] just before 'the Son of God' tells the reader that this was not present in earliest copies.

And I reckon that you know about the inclusion of all those verses at the end of G-Mark.

These are just some examples of Christian Edits.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Jesus told one man to dish out his dosh and follow him. That is presumably relevant advice to anyone else who wants eternal life.

I am not particularly interested in your presumptions, assumptions, guesses or beliefs; if you have a claim to make feel free to support it with something other than rhetoric. The fact is the bible does not contain Jesus making a general rule of anything except not to seek riches before the kingdom.

JW

You decline to refute the case I put forward, other than to twist the point. It is not a question of not seeking riches, but giving them up if you have them. That is his advice. Twisting the point I made is the rhetoric, not my asking whether this applies to others or to everyone.

People will note refusal to give an answer but merely sniff that you don't care what I think and dismiss valid arguments as 'rhetoric'. It is cheating and evasion of the kind we have come to see quite often from Christian apologists.and you only harm your own credibility and that of your religion, when you do it.

... Of course some can't help getting married; he accepts that, but it doesn't alter the teaching that it's better if they didn't.

IS IT BAD FOR A CHRISTIAN TO MARRY?





Both Paul and Jesus taught that if possible it would indeed be better from a spiritual point of view to remain single so as to fully focus on spiritual things. The contrast, however was not between good and bad but between good and better.

1 CORINTHIANS 7:38 NWT
whoever marries does well, but whoever does not marry will do better.

... Of course some can't help getting married; he accepts that, but it doesn't alter the teaching that it's better if they didn't.

Saying it is better not to marry (if one feels able) is a far cry from implying, as some have done in this thread, that singleness is a Christian requirement or that married Christians are ignoring a biblical prohibition or warning (admonition) which compromises their claims to be genuine followers of Christ.

They also ignore the admonition not to marry.

.. it is marriage itself and wealth itself that is considered a no-no.

It is better for a Christian not to marry. Not that it is Bad for them to marry. There's a difference. (By analogy, it is good not to do evil, but doing good is better. Or indeed it is good not to molest stray passing ladies but it is better not to want to do it, as Matthew says.).

Corinthians 7, 1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.[a] 7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. 9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband 11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.

This seems clear. Non- marriage is better. That is the ideal. But if people must marry then let them, and they should not divorce.

That is, I agree, not the same as some requirement for Christians to be unmarried or celibate, or they aren't real Christians. If any have suggested that it is what the Bible or Christianity says, I disagree.