Born from above!

[Bobcat]

Jesus says you must be born from above.

Scripture says he who is born from above is from heaven.

Since man does not really know where heaven is how can he know who comes from heaven or who is from above?

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

John 3:7
7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, "You must be born from above”.


John 3:31
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

So, are you born from above? Are you from heaven?

[JoeyKnothead]

Everyone must prove it for themselves.

"Because I sure can't prove my own claims, and lack the honor and integrity to just offer a simple retraction for em."

So let's ask again and see if the Christian has honor and integrity...

Scripture is God’s word from His servants, the prophets.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

2nd challenge.

“My sheep hear my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish.”

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

1st challenge.

The liar lies and the preacher preaches.

Because you’re not willing to seek Him you’ll never find Him.

So we see now the Christian lacks the honor and integrity to support or retract their claims.

Is lying for Jesus how folks get into Heaven?

“How can you be saved when you accept the praise of men but do not seek the glory of the only God.”

“Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters.”

"How can you be trusted when you refuse to support your claims?"

"Seek not the liar, nor the preacher, for far too often, they're one in the same."

[Bobcat]

Everyone must prove it for themselves.

"Because I sure can't prove my own claims, and lack the honor and integrity to just offer a simple retraction for em."

So let's ask again and see if the Christian has honor and integrity...

Scripture is God’s word from His servants, the prophets.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

2nd challenge.

“My sheep hear my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish.”

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

1st challenge.

The liar lies and the preacher preaches.

Because you’re not willing to seek Him you’ll never find Him.

So we see now the Christian lacks the honor and integrity to support or retract their claims.

Is lying for Jesus how folks get into Heaven?

“How can you be saved when you accept the praise of men but do not seek the glory of the only God.”

“Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters.”

"How can you be trusted when you refuse to support your claims?"

"Seek not the liar, nor the preacher, for far too often, they're one in the same."

I seek not my own will but the will of the LORD, the only God. Whoever chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching, namely, if it comes from God or I am speaking on my own.

But you choose your own will so your blindness remains.

[brunumb]

“Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters.”

The ever growing number of formerly devout Christians who ditched their faith because they never received is testament to the lie in that statement.

“Enter by the narrow gate for the road is easy and the gate is wide that leads to destruction but the road is hard and the gate is narrow that leads to life and few there are who find it.”

Those who ditch their faith never found the narrow gate. Christianity is teaching the wrong way.

But you said: “Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters”, and that is patently not true. Your response does nothing to address that falsehood.

[JoeyKnothead]

I seek not my own will but the will of the LORD, the only God. Whoever chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching, namely, if it comes from God or I am speaking on my own.

Your will is obviously to come to these debates to preach, as you refuse to support or retract your claims when challenged.

But we get it - those who proclaim Truth(tm) are often shown to be incapable of showing they speak it.

But you choose your own will so your blindness remains.

Indeed, I'm blind to where you supported or retracted your challenged claims.

Is it your intention to insult anyone who challenges your claims, or do you just insult anyone who crosses your path?

It's somewhat amusing how the preachers come into these debates then hurl insults at anyone who dares to challenge their claims.

The liar lies and the duck quacks.

[1213]

...
You know and i know that the quote about following was intended as practical for the time as Jesus was alive, but is now a metaphor for joining the church. Give your money to the poor (1) and dedicate yourself to the Church. Who does that? But that was a very clumsy attempt to wrongfoot me.
...

How was it wrongfooting? Is it not true that one can't do literally what Jesus said at that point? I don't see why it would be a metaphor for anything.

Well obviously you were trying to wrongfoot me (1) as 'give your money to the poor and follow me' (unless it is not a valid teaching today - I'll leave that to you) is a teaching for the Christian today and my point is that generally they do not do that.Trying to make the point that Jesus is not actually stomping about for people to troop over is just a piece of misdirection and as I say trying to wrongfoot me with a simple verbal trick that frankly does you no credit at all...

It seems to me that you are the one verbal tricking and wrongfooting. I just insist on keeping what Jesus said. He told for the rich man that he should sell everything and follow him. It is not possible to do so literally today, because Jesus is not on earth at the moment. The scripture was specific for that situation. There are other scriptures that teach about generally how one should act, also that money should not rule person.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
You know and i know that the quote about following was intended as practical for the time as Jesus was alive, but is now a metaphor for joining the church. Give your money to the poor (1) and dedicate yourself to the Church. Who does that? But that was a very clumsy attempt to wrongfoot me.
...

How was it wrongfooting? Is it not true that one can't do literally what Jesus said at that point? I don't see why it would be a metaphor for anything.

Well obviously you were trying to wrongfoot me (1) as 'give your money to the poor and follow me' (unless it is not a valid teaching today - I'll leave that to you) is a teaching for the Christian today and my point is that generally they do not do that.Trying to make the point that Jesus is not actually stomping about for people to troop over is just a piece of misdirection and as I say trying to wrongfoot me with a simple verbal trick that frankly does you no credit at all...

It seems to me that you are the one verbal tricking and wrongfooting. I just insist on keeping what Jesus said. He told for the rich man that he should sell everything and follow him. It is not possible to do so literally today, because Jesus is not on earth at the moment. The scripture was specific for that situation. There are other scriptures that teach about generally how one should act, also that money should not rule person.

You are just repeating what I exposed - that you are watering down the instruction of Jesus - which should still apply metaphorically to all Christians or what teachings can still apply? - to be easy and convenient for you on the grounds that he is dead and you can't follow him. But He is still living in spirit, yes? And he is represented by His Church (unless you don't follow any church) and you can follow his church or his teaching, but either way, do what he said and store not treasure in heaven, nor give thought to the morrow, nor try to squeeze through the eye on a needle with your pockets full of pelf, but give all you have to the poor.

But Noo, noo....the excuse that Jesus is no longer walking about so you can't stalk him is excuse enough for you to hang on to your house, car, TV, Christian rock CD - coillection and your bank balance.

Luke 6.46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

And as to the OP, Born from above evidently means 'born from within the head, brain, mind, ego and will, because that manipulates the Bible and its' teachings into whatever religious form suits the believer best.

[William]

[Replying to Bobcat in post #4]

From above is used for that word far more than born again.

Checking John 3:7 in 62 Bibles.

"Born anew" appears in 9 of the Bibles
"Born from above" appears in 17 of the Bibles
"Born again" appears in 36 of the Bibles

Is there any difference in the different expressions which warrants debate?

I think of the terms as pointing to the same thing.
One has to rethink their existence and what it means.

[TRANSPONDER]

Different people with different beliefs, because that is what we have.

[Bobcat]

“Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters.”

The ever growing number of formerly devout Christians who ditched their faith because they never received is testament to the lie in that statement.

“Enter by the narrow gate for the road is easy and the gate is wide that leads to destruction but the road is hard and the gate is narrow that leads to life and few there are who find it.”

Those who ditch their faith never found the narrow gate. Christianity is teaching the wrong way.

But you said: “Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters”, and that is patently not true. Your response does nothing to address that falsehood.

Well the only reason it is false is because those who seek do not seek the way God wants. Everyone can find God and His righteousness by following those who He talked to, the prophets. Jesus spoke highly of the prophets for a reason. He quoted scripture from the prophets frequently. In truth Jesus was a prophet also. The correct way to seek, to ask and to knock is as a prophet. Spread scripture. There, now I told you plainly. You have no excuse. Study scripture and serve God by spreading His message from the prophets.

“Genuine worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth for it is just such worshippers the Father seeks for God is spirit and those who worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

[Purple Knight]

Jesus says you must be born from above.

Scripture says he who is born from above is from heaven.

Since man does not really know where heaven is how can he know who comes from heaven or who is from above?

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

John 3:7
7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, "You must be born from above”.

This is one reason why I find that the JWs are canonically correct about only a few people actually reaching Heaven itself. It might even be less than that. It might even be none.

Scripturally Heaven is where God is, and it's not normal for regular people to go there. Jesus talks about everyone being raised from the dead but that's different.

This "going to Heaven" thing seems to have quietly segued itself into Christian lore, a lot like how some people think angels are made out of dead humans.