Born from above!

[Bobcat]

Jesus says you must be born from above.

Scripture says he who is born from above is from heaven.

Since man does not really know where heaven is how can he know who comes from heaven or who is from above?

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

John 3:7
7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, "You must be born from above”.


John 3:31
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

So, are you born from above? Are you from heaven?

[Bobcat]

I don’t think the verses I quote are true just cause they’re in the Bible. In fact not everything in the Bible is scripture as most believe. Scripture is God’s word from His servants, the prophets.

How can we confirm you speak truth here?

Most of the New Testament is not scripture, not inspired, but Christians believe it is.

They believe a bunch of goofy stuff.

“The LORD is near to everyone who calls upon Him, who calls upon Him in truth.”

“Father your word is truth.”

Now your task is showing the nearness of the Lord that gets him calledeth upon.

Biblical claims would be among the weakest forms of evidence here, because the Bible is 'selling' this idea.

If that's all you have, then we're just down to arguing "what they really mean".

Can you see how just pointing to the Bible doesn't establish it as an authoritative document?

I can only lead the way. I can’t make you drink.

If you genuinely are trying to seek His righteousness you will find it as I have shown you. The magic is in the use of the words.

“The son of man came eating and drinking and they say he is a drunkard and a friend of sinners and tax collectors.”

“My servants shall eat but you shall go hungry. My servants shall drink but you shall go thirsty.”

“Didn’t your Father eat and drink. He did what is right and just and it went well with him because he dispensed justice to the weak and the poor it went well with him. Isn’t this true knowledge of me saith the LORD.”

“Your ways are not my ways nor are my thoughts your thoughts. As high as the heavens are above the earth that’s how high my ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.”

“The man who comes to me hears my word and uses it.”

[JoeyKnothead]

I can only lead the way. I can’t make you drink.

And I can only challenge your claims, not make you support em.

From your Post 26 you said...

Scripture is God’s word from His servants, the prophets.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

If you genuinely are trying to seek His righteousness you will find it as I have shown you. The magic is in the use of the words.

You accuse me of disingenuousness simply because I challenge your claims.

What if I called you a retard? Would that prove anything?

“The son of man came eating and drinking and they say he is a drunkard and a friend of sinners and tax collectors.”

“My servants shall eat but you shall go hungry. My servants shall drink but you shall go thirsty.”

“Didn’t your Father eat and drink. He did what is right and just and it went well with him because he dispensed justice to the weak and the poor it went well with him. Isn’t this true knowledge of me saith the LORD.”

“Your ways are not my ways nor are my thoughts your thoughts. As high as the heavens are above the earth that’s how high my ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.”

“The man who comes to me hears my word and uses it.”

What is it with you thinking bible quotes prove the quotes in the bible?

Are you incapable of doing anything but preaching?

[Bobcat]

I can only lead the way. I can’t make you drink.

And I can only challenge your claims, not make you support em.

From your Post 26 you said...

Scripture is God’s word from His servants, the prophets.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

If you genuinely are trying to seek His righteousness you will find it as I have shown you. The magic is in the use of the words.

You accuse me of disingenuousness simply because I challenge your claims.

What if I called you a retard? Would that prove anything?

“The son of man came eating and drinking and they say he is a drunkard and a friend of sinners and tax collectors.”

“My servants shall eat but you shall go hungry. My servants shall drink but you shall go thirsty.”

“Didn’t your Father eat and drink. He did what is right and just and it went well with him because he dispensed justice to the weak and the poor it went well with him. Isn’t this true knowledge of me saith the LORD.”

“Your ways are not my ways nor are my thoughts your thoughts. As high as the heavens are above the earth that’s how high my ways are above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.”

“The man who comes to me hears my word and uses it.”

What is it with you thinking bible quotes prove the quotes in the bible?

Are you incapable of doing anything but preaching?

Everyone must prove it for themselves.

“My sheep hear my voice I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish.”

[JoeyKnothead]

Everyone must prove it for themselves.

"Because I sure can't prove my own claims, and lack the honor and integrity to just offer a simple retraction for em."

So let's ask again and see if the Christian has honor and integrity...

Scripture is God’s word from His servants, the prophets.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

2nd challenge.

“My sheep hear my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish.”

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

1st challenge.

The liar lies and the preacher preaches.

[1213]

...
You know and i know that the quote about following was intended as practical for the time as Jesus was alive, but is now a metaphor for joining the church. Give your money to the poor (1) and dedicate yourself to the Church. Who does that? But that was a very clumsy attempt to wrongfoot me.
...

How was it wrongfooting? Is it not true that one can't do literally what Jesus said at that point? I don't see why it would be a metaphor for anything.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
You know and i know that the quote about following was intended as practical for the time as Jesus was alive, but is now a metaphor for joining the church. Give your money to the poor (1) and dedicate yourself to the Church. Who does that? But that was a very clumsy attempt to wrongfoot me.
...

How was it wrongfooting? Is it not true that one can't do literally what Jesus said at that point? I don't see why it would be a metaphor for anything.

Well obviously you were trying to wrongfoot me (1) as 'give your money to the poor and follow me' (unless it is not a valid teaching today - I'll leave that to you) is a teaching for the Christian today and my point is that generally they do not do that.Trying to make the point that Jesus is not actually stomping about for people to troop over is just a piece of misdirection and as I say trying to wrongfoot me with a simple verbal trick that frankly does you no credit at all.

(1)1213 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:07 am

TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 12:22 pm
...Just take that Matthew -quote. It is true that it is reflecting dogma about what a Christian is supposed to do, though rarely does as another quote says it involved giving all one has to the poor (which they generally do not) before following Jesus. So you see, quotes by themselves prove nothing, but making them part of a discussion is both valid and necessary.

But, you think people follow Jesus as told in the scripture otherwise, they just don't give up their money? How could anyone follow Jesus as told in the scripture, when Jesus is not on earth?

[Bobcat]

Everyone must prove it for themselves.

"Because I sure can't prove my own claims, and lack the honor and integrity to just offer a simple retraction for em."

So let's ask again and see if the Christian has honor and integrity...

Scripture is God’s word from His servants, the prophets.

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

2nd challenge.

“My sheep hear my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish.”

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this matter.

1st challenge.

The liar lies and the preacher preaches.

Because you’re not willing to seek Him you’ll never find Him.

“How can you be saved when you accept the praise of men but do not seek the glory of the only God.”

“Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters.”

[brunumb]

“Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters.”

The ever growing number of formerly devout Christians who ditched their faith because they never received is testament to the lie in that statement.

[William]

[Replying to Bobcat in post #4]

From above is used for that word far more than born again.

Checking John 3:7 in 62 Bibles.

"Born anew" appears in 9 of the Bibles
"Born from above" appears in 17 of the Bibles
"Born again" appears in 36 of the Bibles

Is there any difference in the different expressions which warrants debate?

[Bobcat]

“Seek and you shall find, ask and you’ll receive, knock and the door will open for whoever seeks finds, whoever asks receives, whoever knocks enters.”

The ever growing number of formerly devout Christians who ditched their faith because they never received is testament to the lie in that statement.

“Enter by the narrow gate for the road is easy and the gate is wide that leads to destruction but the road is hard and the gate is narrow that leads to life and few there are who find it.”

Those who ditch their faith never found the narrow gate. Christianity is teaching the wrong way.