Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
And of course, if there were Righteous people after that, it means Paul was wrong, ...

Paul doesn't say no person can ever be righteous.

But he does say that none are righteous, no, not one. Now even if that was hyperbole and some are righteous enough to be saved by the law, the majority are not. That is why the law had to go and was replaced by Faith in Jesus. That is what would save, and not works.

[TRANSPONDER]

Paul doesn't say no person can ever be righteous.

Paul's description of one's "righteousness" is by their faith. (i.e.):

"23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." -- Romans 3

"4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." -- Romans 4
...

Yes, person who is righteous, will also be faithful. Faith tells person has right understanding, which is why it can be counted righteousness for the person.

Not unless righteousness is through Faith and the right faith (in Jesus) as being righteous with Faith ibn the wrong religion will not save. If it did, you would not need a religion built around Jesus. It is clearly not the case that Faith (belief in Jesus as a Christian) will make a person do the good, which I guess is what you are trying to claim with 'right understanding' through Faith telling them. This evidently is not the case, unless you are going down the slippery slope of no Real Christian. A fallacy, I would warn you.

[POI]

Paul doesn't say no person can ever be righteous.

Paul's description of one's "righteousness" is by their faith. (i.e.):

"23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." -- Romans 3

"4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." -- Romans 4
...

Yes, person who is righteous, will also be faithful. Faith tells person has right understanding, which is why it can be counted righteousness for the person.

If you also read the parts highlighted in bold above, you will then also see 'faith' is all, in regard to 'righteousness' -- for the human. They are one-in-the-same. However, to move this topic forward, I will place a post below yours, to start summing up this thread.

[POI]

The objective of this thread is to demonstrate that the Bible is NOT clear, as to the instructions for being admitted into heaven. As I stated prior, it's really no different than giving instruction on how to achieve admittance into a club. In some cases, the club may be ambiguous too. Meaning, if it is a very exclusive club, the rule(s) may not be the same for all. Maybe this is also the case for admittance into Heaven? I've asked earnest Christians how one gets into Heaven. I get a wide variety of answers, or non-answers. WHY? Is it because......

1) like the exclusive club, maybe the rule(s) are not the same for all?
2) the instructions are not clear?
3) the bible is clear, but many/most earnest Christians are confused?

So far, I would say answer 2). Why? In some places, scripture states belief is all that is needed, with no mention of works. In other areas, Jesus tells followers humans will be granted access by their works, and no mention of one's faith/belief.

Below is a summation of Christian contributors:

How does one get into Heaven?

A) All go because of his grace
B) Faith/belief
C) Works
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 453: 1213 answer B)

What verse/verses tells us what is required to receive admittance into Heaven?

Further, once we can all agree which is the right answer, then maybe we can then discuss how much of each is required in B) and/or C), if one or both are required.

[1213]

.... 'faith' is all, in regard to 'righteousness' -- for the human...

I think that is not true. Faith is something that comes from right understanding, from right state of mind. And faith is also something that comes visible in persons actions. Without works faith is meaningless, one is not really faithful (loyal) to God, if it doesn't show also in his actions.

[POI]

Without works faith is meaningless, one is not really faithful (loyal) to God, if it doesn't show also in his actions.

So your answer is D)?

[TRANSPONDER]

.... 'faith' is all, in regard to 'righteousness' -- for the human...

I think that is not true. Faith is something that comes from right understanding, from right state of mind. And faith is also something that comes visible in persons actions. Without works faith is meaningless, one is not really faithful (loyal) to God, if it doesn't show also in his actions.

No. You are simply fiddling the way things are to suit what you believe. Validated belief might come fromclear thinking, but that isn't what you meant. Faith comes from believing something that doesn'thave good evidence.Now, Evangelists are adept at pretending they have good evidence, but it really isn't. I undertand if you have been sucked in that way, but we are obliged to explain thatthe christian version of Faith comesfrom Faith cause by Wrong -thinking. 'Right thinking' isn't even thinking you have good evidence, I'd guess because Faith prefers to believe in spite of the evidence.

Right-thinking is just Faith without validation and is not 'Right' at all. It the old scam pf thinking that Godfaith (the Right god, of course) is a good thing., and justified the person simply because they have that Faith

Action - you won't persuade me that Religious Faith is not in my experience much on an advertisement for good actions. I have seen too much of the rot when you scratch under the glossy white paint.

Your assertion needs some validation. Rather it is 'without faith, works are meaningless'. You can be as good as you like but, if you don't have the Right Faith, you can't get saved. That is the doctrine. Don't confuse it with the idea that the Faithful person who is too bad to be salvaged with some exhibition repentance has to be thrown under the bus as a 'no Real Christian'. That is not the 'salvation through works' that you want it to be.

[1213]

No. You are simply fiddling the way things are to suit what you believe. Validated belief might come fromclear thinking, but that isn't what you meant. Faith comes from believing something that doesn'thave good evidence.

In Bible it is not like that.

Noah is one good example in Bible of what faith means. Noah was told that there will come a great flood and that he can survive by making the Ark. Noah listened the claim, and believed the message and trusted that things will go as said and therefore built the ark. So, he had faith, he trusted the messenger and was loyal/faithful to God.

For to do as Noah did, one needs first right understanding to know the message is to be trusted and it is truthful message. After that one can be loyal/faithful and do as told.

[TRANSPONDER]

scrub all that. I just realised that post wasn't you, so no wonder it didn';t actually support you claim. Apologies and reset.

[TRANSPONDER]

No. You are simply fiddling the way things are to suit what you believe. Validated belief might come fromclear thinking, but that isn't what you meant. Faith comes from believing something that doesn'thave good evidence.

In Bible it is not like that.

Noah is one good example in Bible of what faith means. Noah was told that there will come a great flood and that he can survive by making the Ark. Noah listened the claim, and believed the message and trusted that things will go as said and therefore built the ark. So, he had faith, he trusted the messenger and was loyal/faithful to God.

For to do as Noah did, one needs first right understanding to know the message is to be trusted and it is truthful message. After that one can be loyal/faithful and do as told.

Didn't we do this already? People being saved from a flood, and earthquake or an aircraft crash is NOT the same as being saved by Christian faith as per Paul Bible or Christianity. In fact Christianity doctrinally would say that Noah isn't saved (from sin - death) as he didn't believe in Jesus. If it didn't matter and doing what the god (name your own) said made for righteousness (aside from saving a person from a disaster - or not - since in practice prayer doesn't work) Jesus wouldn't have been needed.

It is the specific Godfaith and moreover through Christianity and Jesus - that saves, not even listening to the god of Judaism or Jesws would be Saved as much as Christians, and so I suppose would Muslims, and you wouldn't need Christianity or the Bible. But that might be what you argue anyway.