Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

...The Law was given for hardness of heart, the Bible says...

Please show the scripture.

...
Paul replaced the Law with Jesusfaith which ....

I don't think that is true. I think Paul only shows that obeying the law doesn't make one righteous and it can't save person who has sin. Which I think should be obvious, as, if for example you would have murdered someone, not murdering anyone after that doesn't really undo the murder you already committed.

Matthew 19. 8
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
the term is used in the gospels but the point of it is in Romans 5 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5.20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Neither of those says "The Law was given for hardness of heart".

It is of course appalling that God inflicted the Law to give more chance to sin,

More accurate version says:
"But Law came in beside, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace much more abounded,"


Which means, the law not was not given for to have more chance to sin. The law came between man and God and this led abounding offence. Obviously, if more things are said to be wrong, then there is more possibilities to do wrong and then also more possibilities to forgive.

You actually agree with me, using other words, so arguing with me about murder is pointless when we agree but you don't seem to comprehend that. But you are stopping short of - if the law doesn't save, what does?

God saves.

[TRANSPONDER]

...The Law was given for hardness of heart, the Bible says...

Please show the scripture.

...
Paul replaced the Law with Jesusfaith which ....

I don't think that is true. I think Paul only shows that obeying the law doesn't make one righteous and it can't save person who has sin. Which I think should be obvious, as, if for example you would have murdered someone, not murdering anyone after that doesn't really undo the murder you already committed.

Matthew 19. 8
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
the term is used in the gospels but the point of it is in Romans 5 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5.20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Neither of those says "The Law was given for hardness of heart".

It is of course appalling that God inflicted the Law to give more chance to sin,

More accurate version says:
"But Law came in beside, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace much more abounded,"


Which means, the law not was not given for to have more chance to sin. The law came between man and God and this led abounding offence. Obviously, if more things are said to be wrong, then there is more possibilities to do wrong and then also more possibilities to forgive.

You actually agree with me, using other words, so arguing with me about murder is pointless when we agree but you don't seem to comprehend that. But you are stopping short of - if the law doesn't save, what does?

God saves.

I think you are wrong and one has to take Paul and indeed the gospels in context which is that the Law does not save (which is unarguable as far as Christianity goes) and only Faith does in either Jewish or Christian sense. Despite you juggling with words,and however the mechanics of 'offence'operates, it just makes man potentially more sinful unless (as Paul says) he keeps the law perfectly.

But there is none Righteous. No, not one. That is why something more was needed to Save.

That is the problem, not that it was put between man and God (where does it say that?) and you seem to agree that the law gives people more chance to sin and Paul sees this as giving grace an increased boost which makes no sense as one is either saved or one isn't. The degree of being saved is not altered by the amount of sin, which being original is just sin. But Paul was never very logical. His point is just how wonderful it is that Jesus saves us. If we join the Jesus Party.

God saves of course, in any Abrahamic religion, but How he saves, either by being an observant Jew, adevoted Muslim or a Faithful Christian is the bet one takes. One has to choose the right religion or...God doesn't save you.

[1213]

...
But there is none Righteous. No, not one....

Bible disagrees with you:

These are the generations of Noah. Noah, a righteous man, had been perfected among his family. Noah walked with God.
Gen. 6:9

[TRANSPONDER]

...
But there is none Righteous. No, not one....

Bible disagrees with you:

These are the generations of Noah. Noah, a righteous man, had been perfected among his family. Noah walked with God.
Gen. 6:9

Bible refutes you.

Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

And Paul not Noah is the basis of Christianity. The problem is you quotemine without thinking it through. "Why is there an apparent contradiction?" Because the OT may say that the old time persons were Righteous, but now now one of the really are. Remember that Abraham and Noah were before the Law was given, and Paul says the Law was given to increase the possibility of sinning.

Paul himself is quoting the OT. Psalm 14
1....They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good....
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

[1213]

...
But there is none Righteous. No, not one....

Bible disagrees with you:

These are the generations of Noah. Noah, a righteous man, had been perfected among his family. Noah walked with God.
Gen. 6:9

Bible refutes you.

Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."...

Actually it doesn't. If at some point there was no righteous person, it does not mean that they could not have been before, or ever after that. And the saying "all have turned aside" implies that situation was better at some point.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
But there is none Righteous. No, not one....

Bible disagrees with you:

These are the generations of Noah. Noah, a righteous man, had been perfected among his family. Noah walked with God.
Gen. 6:9

Bible refutes you.

Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."...

Actually it doesn't. If at some point there was no righteous person, it does not mean that they could not have been before, or ever after that. And the saying "all have turned aside" implies that situation was better at some point.

Wrong, either way. If there righteous people once (and that Abraham was willing to kill his son means that 'Righteous means 'willing to do what God says, even if it's immoral') does not alter that (as Paul says) none are righteous now. Indeed, sin deal (that was dumped on us at Eden) means that even Abraham was not going to be saves, despite being Righteous through Faith in God (or doing whatever he said) before the law was given and made people even more sinful, as Paul says (again, I'm assuming you don't dismiss Paul, as if you did you'd have begun cherry - picking the Bible to fit what you prefer) and reasonably, Abraham wasn't saved until Jesus came along. At best he was in 'Paradise' or 'The bosom of Abraham' (Luke) until the crucifixion, which then transported him to one of the heavens.

And of course, if there were Righteous people after that, it means Paul was wrong, and if he was wrong about that, he could be wrong about everything else and Christianity has no doctrinal support.

[1213]

...
And of course, if there were Righteous people after that, it means Paul was wrong, ...

Paul doesn't say no person can ever be righteous.

[POI]

Paul doesn't say no person can ever be righteous.

Paul's description of one's "righteousness" is by their faith. (i.e.):

"23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." -- Romans 3

"4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." -- Romans 4

**********************************************

Are you ready to select answer B)?

[POI]

Christians, what is the answer? Think of it this way. I'm offering tickets for lifetime admission to my club. The answer is -- you pay a one-time $50.00 fee, per ticket. And the ticket has to be registered to the person who pays for the ticket. You see how easy that is? Why is the requirement for admission to Heaven not as easy to explain? Maybe because the Bible is not clear?.?.?.?.?

What is the answer?

A) unconditional grace --> all are saved
B) conditional grace --> by the topic of (faith/belief)
C) conditional grace --> by the topic of (works)
D) B & C
E) No one receives salvation, because no one is worthy

If you opt for an option F), please clarify? And please make sure it would not actually involve the categories/topics of B) and C).

*****************************

Post #11 JW states "the Bible translates itself". (My last response) - Great. Then the answer should be direct and simple, provided one is literate. Is the answer A), B), C), D), or E); and why?

Post #27. Eloi states "I have no time to answer all your questions". (My last response) - This is when I merely asked direct follow up questions to his response (i.e.):

1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)

He apparently, all of a sudden, "has no time" to answer 3 (one-word-answer) questions? Which begs the question... But he has time to answer others in this thread there-after?.?.?.?

Post #49. Bjs1 alludes to 'morals' being irrelevant to salvation. My follow up question remains:

If everyone, for which He selects is undeserving of His selection, and the elected are the ones which will accept it, does this mean 'morals' are irrelevant?

Post# 151. Tam claims I'm trying to somehow 'pigeon-hole' His message about salvation, or demonstrate 'contradiction' in His messages about achieving salvation, when there is not really any.... However, through our exchange, I have happily conveyed that God is clear and direct when He wants to be about many topics --- whether it be about His stance on homosexuality, theft, trespassing, murder, men > women, etc etc etc.... If I was to ask any Christian about what His stance/position would be about many topics, the answer would be unified. However, where the Bible and the topic of salvation is concerned, NOT-SO-MUCH?

Post #236. kjw47 is sticking to answer D). He then attempts to rationalize 'Jesus telling people to give up everything'. (S))he then asserts that the ones who do not possess all their facilities, get judged accordingly. And yet, after repeated attempts to explore, is unable to produce where the Bible says so.

Post #239. DJT_47 states it's both B) and C). When asked a basic followup question, about dying before achieving B) and C), what happens to these folks? (S)he never answers.

Post 321. AFG stated answer D). And if all are not fulfilled, because you died on earth too soon, you still have "Purgatory" to get your ducks in order.

Post 448. 1213 May soon be committing to answer B)?

[1213]

Paul doesn't say no person can ever be righteous.

Paul's description of one's "righteousness" is by their faith. (i.e.):

"23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." -- Romans 3

"4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." -- Romans 4
...

Yes, person who is righteous, will also be faithful. Faith tells person has right understanding, which is why it can be counted righteousness for the person.