Does belief matter at all?

[Willum]

If you believe in Heaven.
If you believe in redemption.
If you believe in monotheism, or a monotheism that is a trinity.
If you believe they put a man on the moon.

Why would you think it has any effect on reality?
Why would you think it has any effect on the afterlife or God?
Realtiy, whatever it is, IS what it is, right?

If termites prayed to you would it make a difference?

Reality will be unchanged by your beliefs, right?
God is perfect and unchanged by your beliefs right?

So how does belief change God or what happens ever, or after you die?

If one termite believes you are his savior, and one believes I am it's saviour, does this change anything at all?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 50 by Provoker]

Wulp, I think if it doesn't matter what I believe, I'll just assume be rational. Just believe in one less god than everyone else, think people are awesome, not sinners, and so on.

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

There is a causation in me that makes me believe in Heaven, God, moral behaviour and ethical thinking due to The Three Stages by Kierkegaard, aesthetics, ethics and religion. These three stages cause you to be religious and the belief, as you suspect, is reinforcing these earlier beliefs in life.

Many people find it repugnant to see people in agony from torture, severe abuse and abuse, plainly. Some people are also called to action in seeing people suffering from war and famine and other troubles in life.

So the theory is, accordingly for Atheists, that either they are swayed by peer pressure despite being moral people or that they have too awful mentalities and that they qualify for Hell in afterlife and so fail to imagine afterlife because of its impending shock in facing their own mental life or mental consequences onto themselves however it unfolds. Clearly, Atheists do not believe in moral behaviour, they "only believe in the non-existence of God". So there they go!

Advise, therefore, to other Christians: if the Bible seems to slip away from you more and more, there is urgent need to take action to change the course of life, preferably by working on discipline and conscience/ethical meditation. Contrary to popular belief among some, the urge for behaving morally is the "promise" or deep feeling for getting to Heaven after the death of the body.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

There is a causation in me that makes me believe in Heaven, God, moral behaviour and ethical thinking due to The Three Stages by Kierkegaard, aesthetics, ethics and religion.

This is a perfect example of utter nonsense. "There is causation in me...." What? There is no 'causation' in anyone. A thing, a person, an animal has no 'causation.' This misuse of language is an abomination to rational thought.

No single thing or person can have 'causation.' One action may 'cause' another, but 'causation' cannot exist in and of itself. Causation REQUIRES the presence of at least two objects. First there must be an event, a 'cause,' that affects an action that 'causes' a result.

The completely nonsensical claim about causation existing within a single being without reference to anything else provides a perfect example of the nonsense that some religious thinkers are capable of. Perhaps this is how religions are born.

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 53 by Danmark]

That aesthetics and ethics can't cause me to believe in Heaven, God and the feeling for goodness, the Holy Ghost? Maybe you are just a strange person then... Most certainly, a woman, say, can cause in you to fall in love with this woman. Just like caring parents can cause in you to believe in morality and ethical thinking as you grow up. This time you need to revise!

[Provoker]

[Replying to post 50 by Provoker]

Wulp, I think if it doesn't matter what I believe, I'll just assume be rational. Just believe in one less god than everyone else, think people are awesome, not sinners, and so on.

Hi Willum:
Good. Now you can finally believe that God is love, and not a pagan god of religious laws and everlasting vengence.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 53 by Danmark]

That aesthetics and ethics can't cause me to believe in Heaven, God and the feeling for goodness, the Holy Ghost? Maybe you are just a strange person then... Most certainly, a woman, say, can cause in you to fall in love with this woman. Just like caring parents can cause in you to believe in morality and ethical thinking as you grow up. This time you need to revise!

You refute your own argument. You claimed there was "causation within you." Then your example suggests causation from without via another. Also I find your examples incorrect. There is no woman who 'causes' you to fall in love with her. 'Falling in love' is not caused by the object of affection. Rather it is a choice the lover makes for a variety of reasons. Loving parents do not 'cause' you to believe in morality. Rather they provide an environment and example that influences you to choose to follow a life of ethics and morality.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 55 by Provoker]

Perhaps God was love, and so challenged death and Satan on our behalf.
But death and evil are not to be challenged lightly, and in 1480, God was slain by the efforts of these two powerful and subtle agents. In fact, they ensured that God was the agent of his own destruction.
That is why nothing has been heard from him since.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 55 by Provoker]

Perhaps God was love, and so challenged death and Satan on our behalf.
But death and evil are not to be challenged lightly, and in 1480, God was slain by the efforts of these two powerful and subtle agents. In fact, they ensured that God was the agent of his own destruction.
That is why nothing has been heard from him since.

So now you agree God is dead, slain by 'death and evil.' Interesting. Seems, according to you, that 'God' was not much of a god. He was easily killed by mere concepts.
However, I have a different 'agent' to suggest as the killer of God:
Truth.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 58 by Danmark]

Truth is certainly one thing that killed God.

Hmmm...
If you assume Satan isn't real, then neither is God.
If you assume God defeated death with Jesus, then death is real. Since death continued afterwards, death was not completely defeated.
Satan and death pulled a team up and caused God to be the instrument of his own destruction.

'God' was not much of a god.

No, he was all-powerful, and capable of destroying himself, and did so through the manipulations of his enemies, in 1480CE.

You could prove me wrong.

[peterk]

It is wrong because it is a logical impossibility; IF GOD made Satan to want heaven then Satan is not choosing heaven by his free will, and it never can be a free will decision no matter how much you contest that.

You say that but that's exactly what God has done with all the elected. God made a bunch of people who want heaven by their won free will. You can't have have it both ways. Either the "sinless elected" are programmed, or they are not. If they are not programmed, then a repeat of that process would also not be a case of programming, whatever that process involves.

Bust Nak, I'm interested in exploring this further if you wish. My current position is broadly the same as ttruscott's. I think it's not possible for God to make a person who necessarily chooses God and yet has free will. But I do not think this makes God less than omnipotent. The analogy would be expecting God to create a square circle or a leaf that is green and not-green at the same time. Those examples are not about God's nature. They are about meaningless language. I think it was C S Lewis who said, "A meaningless sentence does not take on meaning just because the words 'God can' are tacked on at the beginning."

So I understand ttruscott, but my problem is now understanding your point. "Sinless" and "elect" are not obviously contradictory terms to me. So I'm confused by your answers. You're obviously giving thoughtful posts, but I would find it helpful if you could explain your last post in different words.