Problems with the Problem of Pain

[liamconnor]

The supposal of an omnipotent, omniscient and good God is often attacked on the grounds of the presence of pain in the world. Such attacks paint the world as experienced so terrible, that one wonders why there are not more suicides: like 99% of humanity!

Yet every talk I have ever had with any atheist has revealed a relish in living.

It is as if there is just enough pain the world to reject theism; but not enough to go out and truly have a good time with friends over a pint of beer.

How do we reconcile the painting of reality made by atheists (who use the argument of the problem of evil: not all do) and the lives they live? Is this philosophical hypocrisy? Is it hypocritical to denounce a good god on the grounds that people are starving in Somalia while typing on a laptop and eating a burger from Wendy's?

(I suppose I should add that any atheist who adds his bit obviously acknowledges his or her access to a computer! and the internet! to the health and education that enables him or her to engage in this debate!)

[PinSeeker]

I am not so much an immediate gratification guy but an avoid gratuitous pain guy.

"Gratuitous pain..." Now that's a very "interesting" way to put it. A few questions for you, then:

1. Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? That's straight from Romans 9, by the way...

2. Who are you to say something God ordains is "not called for by the circumstances," or "not necessary," or "not appropriate or justified?"

I can think of about 70 other questions to ask you, but I'll tell you where you can find them all. Job 38 through 41. This is God questioning Job when he got a little, um... shall we say... presumptuous, as you are right now. A sampling:

• * "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?"
  
  * "Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!"
  
  * "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?"
  
  * "Tell Me, if you have understanding, who set its measurements? Since you know."
  
  * "Or who stretched the line on it?"
  
  * "On what were its bases sunk?"
  
  * "Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
  
  * "Or who enclosed the sea with doors when, bursting forth, it went out from the womb; when I made a cloud its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, and I placed boundaries on it and set a bolt and doors, and I said, ‘Thus far you shall come, but no farther; and here shall your proud waves stop’?"

I'll skip to Job's response; it would be a good example for you:

• “ I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees You; therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes.â€�

The whole book of Job would be a good read for you. He suffers unimaginable things. But you do what you want. Like I said, you're your own man.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 54 by PinSeeker]

Nobody, not even God, gets a "pass." It's not hard to discern the purposes of fellow human beings like us. But God is infinite, and His thoughts and ways are far higher than ours.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

No assumptions here. All facts, based on more than ample evidence. Just... none of which you accept. Which we all know.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 54 by PinSeeker]

Nobody, not even God, gets a "pass." It's not hard to discern the purposes of fellow human beings like us. But God is infinite, and His thoughts and ways are far higher than ours.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

No assumptions here. All facts, based on more than ample evidence. Just... none of which you accept. Which we all know.

There's no point in calling them "facts" if you can't even sell them to anyone.

Of course the religion you preach has taught you that everyone who doesn't believe in it is some sort of heathen unworthy of your God. But if you fell for that one you have no one to blame but yourself.

All you need to do is stop and think about this for a while and you should be able to figure out why this kind of religious nonsense can't be made to work.

Because after all, the Muslims are saying the very same thing about you. The reason you don't accept the fact of the Qur'an and Allah is because you have been blinded by the false religion of Christianity.

It's your very same argument. A totally worthless argument I'm sure you'll agree. Unless you want to hold that it's a valid argument in which case the Muslims must then be right.

So as you can see this kind of underhanded tactic doesn't work at all.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 54 by PinSeeker]

Nobody, not even God, gets a "pass." It's not hard to discern the purposes of fellow human beings like us. But God is infinite, and His thoughts and ways are far higher than ours.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

No assumptions here. All facts, based on more than ample evidence. Just... none of which you accept. Which we all know.

There's no point in calling them "facts" if you can't even sell them to anyone.

Of course the religion you preach has taught you that everyone who doesn't believe in it is some sort of heathen unworthy of your God. But if you fell for that one you have no one to blame but yourself.

All you need to do is stop and think about this for a while and you should be able to figure out why this kind of religious nonsense can't be made to work.

Because after all, the Muslims are saying the very same thing about you. The reason you don't accept the fact of the Qur'an and Allah is because you have been blinded by the false religion of Christianity.

It's your very same argument. A totally worthless argument I'm sure you'll agree. Unless you want to hold that it's a valid argument in which case the Muslims must then be right.

So as you can see this kind of underhanded tactic doesn't work at all.

Yet again: You're your own man. Reading Job would be good for you, too. Maybe you might start to get a few things right about Christianity. For once.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 61 by PinSeeker]

Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Who are you, O God, to hide from humans and expect them to believe you exist on faith.

[Bust Nak]

People didn’t need to learn evil. They wanted to learn it the hard way. People could have asked all things directly from God, but no, they rather wanted to become like God and that led us to this first death, where all kind of evil things can be experienced without them destroying our soul.

That's even worse. What a flawed far from perfect creation. Hint: you were supposed to be making the case that perfection is logically impossible and hence beyond the abilities of even omnipotence.

[Bust Nak]

1. Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? That's straight from Romans 9, by the way...

2. Who are you to say something God ordains is "not called for by the circumstances," or "not necessary," or "not appropriate or justified?"

Just a logical person using a logic contradiction as a hammer.

I can think of about 70 other questions to ask you, but I'll tell you where you can find them all. Job 38 through 41...

• “ I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees You; therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes.â€�

God might be able to convince me to worship him, but the concept of an omnipotent and good God is still incoherient. God, should he exist, is not, and cannot be omnipotent and good.

[PinSeeker]

Who are you, O God, to hide from humans and expect them to believe you exist on faith.

Heh, heh, heh... God hides in plain sight. And God-given faith is not a "wish."

[PinSeeker]

Just a logical person using a logic contradiction as a hammer.

There are no contradictions in God's Word. You're "hammer" is made of foam. You know, like a nerf football.

God might be able to convince me to worship him, but the concept of an omnipotent and good God is still incoherent.

To you it is, sure. We humans cannot overcome the heart of stone. For sure.

God, should he exist, is not, and cannot be omnipotent and good.

Oh, He most certainly exists. And He's both all-powerful and Good (capital 'G'). But you're certainly more than welcome to your opinion.

[Bust Nak]

There are no contradictions in God's Word.

Bottom line, a supposedly perfect creator, creating less than perfect creation. That's the contradiction right there in the rawest form. Your response can be summed up as: there is a reason God created things that way, whether we know what that reason is or not; but that doesn't resolve the contradiction, no amount of reason can reconcile the concept of a perfect creator creating imperfection.