Genesis 1:1

[StuartJ]

In the beginning Elohim/Theos/God created the heavens and the earth.

If we can't get past this very first verse, we can't claim legitimacy for another mote of biblical writing.

Do the Elohim exist ...?

Did they do the creating ...?

When was the beginning ...?

What are the heavens and the earth ...?

Who wrote that verse ...?

Can we back ANY of Gen 1:1 with anything other than faith and quotations from the same writings ...?

Because if we can't, we have to be honest and admit it.

And nit-picking over the finer details of what the questions may mean, or critiquing science, are just diversionary tactics.

[JehovahsWitness]

In the beginning Elohim/Theos/God created the heavens and the earth.


When was the beginning ...?

What are the heavens and the earth ...?

I think the general consensus is the beginning of "the heavens" if we take that to refer to the physical universe was approximately 14 billion years ago. And the beginning of "the earth" ( our planet ) about 4 billion years ago.

All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. - Lecture by Proffessor Stephen William Hawking, theoretical physicist, cosmologist, and author

Researchers used uranium-lead techniques to date the meteorite back 4.54 billion years, give or take about 70 million " the best age for our planet so far, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.

JW

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[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

You missed the big questions ....

And used science to answer the easy ones.

[JehovahsWitness]

[You ] used science to answer the easy ones.

Have you got something against science?

( I didn't see any prohibition on the use of science in the OP)


JW

[marco]

What are the heavens and the earth ...?

Who wrote that verse ...?

Can we back ANY of Gen 1:1 with anything other than faith and quotations from the same writings ...?

Because if we can't, we have to be honest and admit it.

The heavens are supposedly somewhere in the sky, invisibly producing harps and good-quality violins for the use of a billion or so musicians.

The writers were guided by the Holy Ghost who had a broken arm and couldn't write himself. But then he made up for it in the 7th century where we have an actual God-produced book which demotes Ghost and Jesus to observers.

When I emerged from boyhood fascination with David cutting off Goliath's head (I liked Caravaggio's painting) I had a chat with a Jesuit and he suggested Genesis is poetry, and that made some sense. The game of hide-and-seek with God and Adam and his palindromic concubine, where God asks foolishly "Where are you? I can see you!" - seen poetically stops being ridiculous. It is impossible to take Genesis literally. At one stage or another we have to concede defeat there. For example, literalists will accept a "day" cannot be 24 hours. Admit one figure and you allow twenty.

[bluethread]

Gen. 1:1 is a philosophical statement. "In the beginning" refers the beginning of the account, or the beginning as it relates to His people.

What are the heavens and the earth ...?

The first chapter of Genesis is also establishing terms. In that verse, the heavens(shamayim) and the earth('eretz) refer to the unknowable and the knowable. They are later used to refer to more specific things. However, here they are rather general terms.

Who wrote that verse ...?

The account is oral tradition that is believed to have been written down by Moshe' while wandering in the wilderness with the children of Israel.

Can we back ANY of Gen 1:1 with anything other than faith and quotations from the same writings ...?

It can be backed up with philosophical arguments relating to the nature of human psychology.

[StuartJ]

"Philosophy"

"Poetry"

"Psychology"

In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth, doesn't look like any of those things to me.

For 2,000 years or so it was understood as a statement of fact by "God".

Everyone in this forum, I suggest, knows perfectly well why it is now hidden behind the smokescreen of "philosophy" and such ...

It's creation mythology.

And the Elohim are the pre-Jewish Canaanite gods who are as mythological as anyone else's.

They are the products of primitive human imaginations.

No matter how much you pretend you are doing "philosophy", the angels and virgins and talking donkeys and genocide and resurrections and mud men and rib women are still there.

And oral traditions supposedly written down by a possibly fictional character while supposedly leading a vast mixed multitude through a wilderness and receiving laws written by the finger of "God" atop a mountain, certainly looks like the stuff of fantasy ...

And is feet of clay on which to build the "Word of God".

And when the delusory smokescreen is blown away, what is left that is real and literal ...?

And who decides ...?

And what are the criteria for deciding ...?

And when - as more and more preachers are doing - do we admit we've been playing a convoluted game of makebelieve ...

And it's time to be honest ....?

https://owlcation.com/misc/Atheists-in- ... the-Clergy

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 6 by bluethread]

You failed to show that the Elohim exist ...

Or that they created anything.

The rest of what you wrote - I suggest - is a smokescreen.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 5 by marco]

Call it "poetry" or "philosophy" or whatever and you are putting the same sort of chasm between these writing and the everyday folk as having the writings in a dead language.

Only the initiated can understand them properly.

The Jesuits - I suggest - know perfectly well they are dealing with ancient creation mythology right here.

But they have had centuries to develop tricks and smokescreens to keep themselves in a soft living.

[bluethread]

"Philosophy"

"Poetry"

"Psychology"

In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth, doesn't look like any of those things to me.

For 2,000 years or so it was understood as a statement of fact by "God".

By whom? Please provide sources and quotations. Why are you so opposed to Philosophy, Poetry and Psychology?

Everyone in this forum, I suggest, knows perfectly well why it is now hidden behind the smokescreen of "philosophy" and such ...

It's creation mythology.

And the Elohim are the pre-Jewish Canaanite gods who are as mythological as anyone else's.

They are the products of primitive human imaginations.

Can you show this to be "fact", as you use the term in requiring responses from others?

No matter how much you pretend you are doing "philosophy", the angels and virgins and talking donkeys and genocide and resurrections and mud men and rib women are still there.

And oral traditions supposedly written down by a possibly fictional character while supposedly leading a vast mixed multitude through a wilderness and receiving laws written by the finger of "God" atop a mountain, certainly looks like the stuff of fantasy ...

And is feet of clay on which to build the "Word of God".

You have right to your opinion.

And when the delusory smokescreen is blown away, what is left that is real and literal ...?

And who decides ...?

And what are the criteria for deciding ...?

It appears that you have already decided these things. So, what is the problem?

And when - as more and more preachers are doing - do we admit we've been playing a convoluted game of makebelieve ...

And it's time to be honest ....?

https://owlcation.com/misc/Atheists-in- ... the-Clergy

No dought there are dishonest people in this world. However, what is your justification for saying that the people who have responded to you on this thread are being dishonest?