God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 50 by PinSeeker]


myth-one.com wrote:

Jesus states that believers shall have everlasting life. And non-believers perish...

Pinseeker replied

Yes, but as I've said, many, many times now, you misunderstand what is truely meant in John 3:16 (and elsewhere in the Bible) by 'perish,' 'perishing,' 'death,' etc. Cessation of existence... annihilation... is not a synonym for the aforementioned words as used in the Bible in any way, shape, or form.

You have said this, so many many times, and no doubt you will continue doing so.

Fair enough. Most posters do it when they feel strongly about something.

If God had intended to convey to us "cessation of existence... annihilation..", how could He/should He/would He, have clearly done so(without using those words)?

Grace and peace once again, bro.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 47 by PinSeeker]

All evil and sin -- and those who are not repentant and believing in the Lord and serving Him will be removed from the earth. Removed, not wiped from existence. There is no implication that the wicked are wiped from existence.

"removed from the earth"?

So, all evil and sin -- and sinners, continue for eternity?

No way!

But again, there is absolutely no implication that the wicked are wiped from existence.

In summary, all this is regarding the heavens and the earth, which, post-Judgment, will be one -- Paradise found/restored.

Having said that, though, neither cessation of existence of the wicked -- nor that there is not a place where the wicked will be sent -- is implied here, either explicitly or implicitly.

So, the wicked continue their sin and evil for eternity?

No way, no need!

Blessings to all posters and readers.

[PinSeeker]

You have said this, so many many times, and no doubt you will continue doing so.

Welllllll.... not if people on this forum quit passing off as true/correct the misunderstanding that myth-one is passing off...

Fair enough. Most posters do it when they feel strongly about something.

Fair enough, but as you know, that's a two-way street.

If God had intended to convey to us "cessation of existence... annihilation..", how could He/should He/would He, have clearly done so(without using those words)?

I don't care to speculate on that, except to say that I'm sure He would have made it crystal clear. Like I have said, though, there is no scriptural support for annihilationism -- not at all, much less even the less-than-clear kind.

All evil and sin -- and those who are not repentant and believing in the Lord and serving Him will be removed from the earth. Removed, not wiped from existence. There is no implication that the wicked are wiped from existence.

"removed from the earth"?

Yes.

So, all evil and sin -- and sinners, continue for eternity? No way!

You mean sinners continue to sin? I would tend to agree with you here, but that's actually a good question. As far as I know, God doesn't tell us that. I'm just saying sinners will not cease to exist, but will have no presence in the New Heaven and the New Earth. Only the redeemed will walk there (Isaiah 35).

But again, there is absolutely no implication that the wicked are wiped from existence. In summary, all this is regarding the heavens and the earth, which, post-Judgment, will be one -- Paradise found/restored. Having said that, though, neither cessation of existence of the wicked -- nor that there is not a place where the wicked will be sent -- is implied here, either explicitly or implicitly.

So, the wicked continue their sin and evil for eternity? No way, no need!

Again, I tend to agree with you, but there is no sense in speculating about that (at least in my opinion).

Blessings to all posters and readers.

Grace and peace to you also, Checkpoint.

[tam]

Peace to you.

For the sake of some readers, I am going to divide this post into its two points (so two posts).

First

[Replying to post 42 by tam]

Yes, you've clearly enunciated all those egregious scripture misunderstandings several times before. All that needs to be said in response are two things:

1. Annihilationism is not communicated in any way by God via His Holy Spirit, in His Word.

Am I to assume that by "His Word" you mean the bible? It is not the bible that is the Word of God. We have a living God, and He has a living Word: His Son. Christ is the Word of God. If one wishes to know the truth of this or any matter, then He is the Word to whom we should ask and listen TO.


That being said, "annihilationism" (utter destruction) is also supported in what is written (as well as being supported by love).



Jude said (Jude 1:7) about Sodom and Gomorrah:

They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah are no more.

Peter said the same (giving a second witness):

if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:6


Destroyed. Reduced to ashes.

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 2 Peter 3:6


We can know (from our own observances) that fire (especially if it is hot enough) destroys/consumes/devours completely.


And at 1 Corinthians 15:26, Paul says:

The last enemy to be destroyed is Death.


The word translated as destroyed (katarge) can (and is) used in the following way:

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency

to deprive of force, influence, power

to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

to cease, to pass away, be done away

to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one

to terminate all intercourse with one

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 2673&t=KJV


See also fire that devours (katesthi), and its usage is here:

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

to consume by eating, to eat up, devour

of birds

of a dragon

of a man eating up the little book

metaph.

to devour i.e. squander, waste: substance

to devour i.e. forcibly appropriate: widows' property

to strip one of his goods

to ruin (by the infliction of injuries)

by fire, to devour i.e. to utterly consume, destroy

of the consumption of the strength of body and mind by strong emotions

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 2719&t=KJV


So I am afraid you cannot say that there is no claim (or even hint) of the wicked eventually ceasing to exist, in the bible. It is there.






Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy (on to the second post...)

(edited to fix quote box)

[myth-one.com]

Jesus states that believers shall have everlasting life. And non-believers perish...

Yes, but as I've said, many, many times now, you misunderstand what is truely meant in John 3:16 (and elsewhere in the Bible) by 'perish,' 'perishing,' 'death,' etc. Cessation of existence... annihilation... is not a synonym for the aforementioned words as used in the Bible in any way, shape, or form.

Annihilation: complete destruction or obliteration.

So you believe humans cast into the lake of fire will still exist after their second death?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 53 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

If God had intended to convey to us "cessation of existence... annihilation..", how could He/should He/would He, have clearly done so(without using those words)?

Pinseeker replied:

I don't care to speculate on that, except to say that I'm sure He would have made it crystal clear. Like I have said, though, there is no scriptural support for annihilationism -- not at all, much less even the less-than-clear kind.

Oh yes there is, and it is crystal clear.

You cannot and do not see it, however, and therefore see it as pointless speculation.


Checkpoint wrote:

So, all evil and sin -- and sinners, continue for eternity? No way!

Pinseeker answered:

You mean sinners continue to sin? I would tend to agree with you here, but that's actually a good question. As far as I know, God doesn't tell us that. I'm just saying sinners will not cease to exist, but will have no presence in the New Heaven and the New Earth. Only the redeemed will walk there (Isaiah 35).

Come on, Pinseeker!

I'm right now just saying sinners who "will not cease to exist" are sinners by nature who will not cease to sin for all eternity.

God has already told us that, many times.

It's an integral part of the hell package you have chosen, my friend. Just add it in as one more of those "very hard truths" in your version of "the truth about hell".

Grace and peace, Pinseeker.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Continuing from my previous post...

Part 2

[Replying to post 43 by PinSeeker]

2. Pre-millennialism -- in both it's forms, historic and dispensational, is very much in error. Your points 2 and 3 are essentially correct, but the understanding of the Millennium to be a future, literal, 1000-year period is very much incorrect.

The "thousand years" has to be a future event, Pinseeker, not the least reason being because Adversary is not yet locked in the abyss to keep him from deceiving the nations.

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. Rev 20:1-3


You only have to look at the world- heck, you only have to look at Christendom itself - to see that the Adversary is indeed deceiving the nations. He was described as being active and seeking to devour people even after Christ died (and was resurrected).

Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7

in order that Satan should not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. 2 Corinth 2:11


All of the above is occurring in what you say is the "thousand years".


For some reason (if I am remembering correctly) you seem to think that 'deceiving the nations' means not permitting the gospel to be preached. But which gospel would that be, Pinseeker? The gospel according to Calvin? The gospel according to the RCC? The gospel according to the WTS, the LDS, the Baptists, the Pentecostals, the Branch Davidians?


That's an awful lot of deceit and lies out there about God, and His Son and the gospel. A river of lies and deceit, one could say (rev 12:16). To believe that the Adversary is not out there deceiving people about the gospel... well, that's quite the deception on its own, is it not? Who do you suppose would stand to gain by teaching that lie?


And look also at the parable of the farmer who sowed the word (Mark 4:14-20; parallel passage Matthew 13:19-23):

The farmer sows the word. 15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop"some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.


Satan is here taking away the word that was sown in people!




The Adversary is not yet bound; and if the Adversary is not yet bound, how can we be in "the thousand years"?



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

Christ is the Word of God.

Agreed.

If one wishes to know the truth of this or any matter, then He is the Word to whom we should ask and listen TO.

So reading the Bible is of no avail? If that's what you somehow think, there is no need to go any further; we can stop this conversation right here.

"annihilationism" (utter destruction) is also supported in what is written (as well as being supported by love) Jude 1:7 2 Peter 2:6 2 Peter 3:6

The only thing supported by any of these texts is eternal judgment " not cessation of existence or being " as indicated by the reference to fire (eternal fire, ashes (from fire), and stored up for fire, respectively. Annihilation is not supported in any way by these passages; it is not in view in the least. I can certainly see how that misunderstanding arises, but it is just that: a mistaken understanding.

1 Corinthians 15:26

With all due respect, the use of this quote from Paul in an attempt to bolster your point is astonishing. Yes, for believers, death will happen no more. So yes, death " for believers " will cease to exist. A great treatise on this is The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, by John Owen. Pauls letters to the Corinthians are written to the Church at Corinth " believers. Unbelievers are not referred to at all, here, much less any cessation of existence of them. This whole passage is about our victory in Christ! Like I said, just astonishing.

So you believe humans cast into the lake of fire will still exist after their second death?

Round and round we go... You've asked this very question of me many times, and I have answered the same way that many times. Yes. Just as there are those who are dead among us now -- walking around -- so will there be dead separated from us -- walking around -- in eternity. One of the main differences between them and the living in eternity as opposed to now is that, for them, having experienced the second death, there will no longer be any possibility of redemption or salvation. The first death, which all will experience, is temporary, and the second death, which only the unsaved will experience, is permanent. But they do not cease to exist. No one does. The lake of fire is a symbolic image of the eternal abode of the unrepentant, where they will live under -- subject to -- God's judgment, which is their eternal punishment; God's grace is absolutely removed -- this is absolute death -- and there is no longer any possibility of redemption.

I'm right now just saying sinners who "will not cease to exist" are sinners by nature who will not cease to sin for all eternity.

Yeah, I mean, youre welcome to say that. Youre your own person. As for me, Ill leave that to the speculation of others.

God has already told us that, many times.

No, He hasnt. Nope.

It's an integral part of the hell package you have chosen, my friend. Just add it in as one more of those "very hard truths" in your version of "the truth about hell".

LOL! The package? I dont even know what that means Well I do but its just kind of a silly way to put it. Even so, what youre propagating here is just speculation.

The "thousand years" has to be a future event, Pinseeker, not the least reason being because Adversary is not yet locked in the abyss to keep him from deceiving the nations... The Adversary is not yet bound; and if the Adversary is not yet bound, how can we be in "the thousand years"?

Weve been through this several times before, but Ill not ignore you here. Two things in brief:

1. The thousand years " Im glad you put that in quotes, figurative and symbolic as it is " is only future in that it hasnt ended yet; it will when Jesus returns.
2. Satan absolutely is bound in that because of the advent of Christ our Savior, he is no longer able to deceive the nations hide the Gospel from them.

As always, grace and peace to you all.

[PinSeeker]

I will say this to sum it all up:

I always did and I surely do see how annihilation can be understood from the aforementioned passages.

By the same token, I always did and surely do see how the millennium of Revelation 20 can be understood to be a literal, future-only, 1000 year period.

Regarding the latter, I once did understand the millennium in that way, and for a good period of time.

I have since been taught, though -- yes, by Christians past and present, but ultimately by God through Christ and by His Spirit -- the error in those understandings and that to understand those passages in those ways is to inadvertently make Paul's and John's and ultimately, in the case of both, God's (as it's His Word we are discussing) massages out to be either:

• a. extremely shallow

or:

• b. at least not nearly as deep as they are

Assuredly, neither is the case.

Again, grace and peace to all of you.

[myth-one.com]

So you believe humans cast into the lake of fire will still exist after their second death?

Round and round we go... You've asked this very question of me many times, and I have answered the same way that many times. Yes.

Who profits from the eternal existence of non-believers?