Why Islam does not clash with modern science, or does it?

[Abdelrahman]

Peace be unto all of you! Believers and Non-Believers alike!

As a Muslim, we put huge regard on scripture not clashing with modern science. We believe that if God created the scripture then it should not contain errors in it when referencing the natural world and what we've come to understand about it.

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Quran (4:82)

Many Christian/Atheist debates exist out there, but I am saddened to see that no atheists debate Muslim scholars who read and write Arabic fluently. When debates are organized between people who don't understand arabic or science it goes no where.

Arabic is my mother tongue. I also speak English at home so I'd say im fluent in both. I am a science university graduate and I love the topic of religion and science.

In Islam, we don't have 'blind faith'. I am not allowed to believe something blindly, I must have reasons. Real reasons. That is why we believe God allowed the prophets to perform miracles - so as to give people a sign. And since we believe the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the last prophet, his sign and lasting miracle is the Qur'an. The Qur'an is meant to be a 'sign' to the end of time and I invite all members to reflect on its verses.

I am looking to debate someone on whether or not Islamic scriptural references to the natural world clash with modern scientific understanding!

[Purple Knight]

What interests me is if Abdel would still conclude that the Qu'ran says the universe is expanding from those verses if science said, "Screech. Wait. Hold on. The universe isn't necessarily expanding after all; it just happened to be that most of the things we could see happened to be moving away from us because of this phenomenon we only now discovered pushing galaxies in our area away from a central point. We just developed this new super amazing telescope and it turns out that the really far stuff out of range of this phenomenon is actually more blue-shifted. Our bad."

Words are words Purple Knight. They carry meaning. Those meanings can be looked up. Expanding means expanding. Extending means extending. Arabic is like english based n rooot words that you can trace back to a backbone structure for its meaning. If I say:

The red ball is bouncing.

That is all I can mean. There is no other interpretation to the word bounce. I can look up its root and why bounce means bounce. Same with Arabic. Yes some words carry multiple meanings, in this case we aren't having that issue which is simply solved with context.

The Qur'an simply states what it states. Not my fault lol.

Science may well be wrong about the universe expanding.

I hope they are, so we can see if your interpretation changes.

[Abdelrahman]

Science may well be wrong about the universe expanding.

I hope they are, so we can see if your interpretation changes.

Haha, my interpretation can't change though. And by the way, we believe near the end of time the planets will collapse in on themselves and everything will be destroyed.

Kind of like the Big Crunch theorized in science? Maybe, maybe not, but interesting to note nonetheless.

Take a look at this verse:

"And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do." - The Holy Qur'an [27:88]

Says that mountains although they appear rigid, like the clouds, are slowly moving and will eventually pass. Wild interpretation? How about this one:

“Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground and come forth as springs, then He caused crops of different colors to grow…� - The Holy Qur’an [39:21]

The verse here indicates that springs form from the infiltration of rain water into the Earth. In the sixteenth century, Bernard Palissy, developed the first coherent description of the water cycle and even into the nineteenth century there were still people who believed in Aristotle’s theory that water was condensed in cool mountain caverns and formed underground lakes that fed springs. So how does a man 1400 years ago predict that springs' water source comes from rain originally and not what Aristotle thought?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 12 by Abdelrahman]

So how does a man 1400 years ago predict that springs' water source comes from rain originally and not what Aristotle thought?

Wouldn't you expect a man from 1400 years ago to observe that rain falls, that rain is water, and that once it hits the earth it is either absorbed by the dirt, or it flows downhill to end up in streams, rivers and lakes, etc.? These are simple observations anyone can make, and the verse you quoted ignores the existence of underground water pockets (water table), and how water flows between such structures and can create springs, etc. It is yet another vague statement that you are interpreting as you see fit to make a point.

Everything in the Qur'an, or any holy book, was written by men of their time based on human knowledge of the time along with imagination. There is no more evidence that the story of Muhammad sitting in a cave (Hira) and being dictated to by an imaginary angel called Gabriel (Jibril) is any more valid than the story of Joseph Smith finding gold plates in the 1820s in New York that he could interpret with a seer stone. These are man-made accounts of events created to form the basis of a religion, and sometimes they catch on and sometimes they don't. None of the thousands of gods that humans have invented has ever been shown to actually exist, and I find it very surprising that all of them seem to insist on hiding themselves completely from humans. But this is also what makes it so easy for humans to invent different gods and assign them particular characteristics and abilities. If you're discussing the scientific validity of stories in holy books, it seems necessary to also discuss the scientific validity of the various gods themselves, and whether they can exist as described. So far, none have passed the test.

[Abdelrahman]

Wouldn't you expect a man from 1400 years ago to observe that rain falls, that rain is water, and that once it hits the earth it is either absorbed by the dirt, or it flows downhill to end up in streams, rivers and lakes, etc.? These are simple observations anyone can make, and the verse you quoted ignores the existence of underground water pockets (water table), and how water flows between such structures and can create springs, etc. It is yet another vague statement that you are interpreting as you see fit to make a point.

This is from the National Geographic website encyclopedia on Water Tables (https://www.nationalgeographic.org/ency ... ter-table/):

The shape and height of the water table is influenced by the land surface that lies above it; it curves up under hills and drops under valleys. The groundwater found below the water table comes from precipitation that has seeped through surface soil. Springs are formed where the water table naturally meets the land surface, causing groundwater to flow from the surface and eventually into a stream, river, or lake.

The verse says:

“Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground and come forth as springs, then He caused crops of different colors to grow…� - The Holy Qur’an [39:21]

It doesn't say that water falls and flows into rivers and lakes. It clearly says that the waterpenetrates the ground and thus the source of groundwater found underground is precipitation, then it says that the same water is what gushes out to form springs. Agreeing completely with modern understanding. The word 'and' here doesn't mean in addition to penetrating rain water also flows into rivers. In arabic the 'and' is referencing the very same water that penerated. I understand in English 'and' only means one thing, but in arabic there are many different kinds of conjunctions for 'and', and in this case we are referencing the same body of water.

So it does talk about the water under the ground as shown. Now, 1400 years ago, you think a man can guess such a thing? If so...

Take into consideration that up to the Renaissance, it was thought that precipitation alone was insufficient to feed rivers. Leonardo Da Vinci himself along with Bartholomew of England and a few others believed that underground water pushing upwards from the oceans was the main contributor to river water. It wasn't until 1580 CE (hundreds of years after Muhammad (pbuh)) that Bernard Palissy stated that it was rain water alone that fed rivers.

I ask you this, if it was so simple as to guess where water came from, then why did the great Leonardo Da Vinci get it wrong? Why did it take hundreds of years to figure something so simple out?

It may be simple to you today, but such a statement precedes what people knew at the time, and it wasn't for another hundred years that we would establish it as fact.

How about the mountain verse? How can a man guess that the mountains moved very very slowly, surely a man's life is not long enough to witness such events. I have only mentioned a few to you, but trust me, there are hundreds of 'signs' in the Qur'an that point to a divine source for the text.

Everything in the Qur'an, or any holy book, was written by men of their time based on human knowledge of the time along with imagination. There is no more evidence that the story of Muhammad sitting in a cave (Hira) and being dictated to by an imaginary angel called Gabriel (Jibril) is any more valid than the story of Joseph Smith finding gold plates in the 1820s in New York that he could interpret with a seer stone. These are man-made accounts of events created to form the basis of a religion, and sometimes they catch on and sometimes they don't. None of the thousands of gods that humans have invented has ever been shown to actually exist, and I find it very surprising that all of them seem to insist on hiding themselves completely from humans. But this is also what makes it so easy for humans to invent different gods and assign them particular characteristics and abilities. If you're discussing the scientific validity of stories in holy books, it seems necessary to also discuss the scientific validity of the various gods themselves, and whether they can exist as described. So far, none have passed the test.

I respectfully disagree, if the Qur'an reflected scientific understanding of its time it would be completely different. Not only was Muhammad (pbuh) not raised in any of the scientific societies of the time (The Greeks mainly), the Qur'an doesn't even reflect the Greeks views at the time (thought to be the most advanced scientifically).

For example, the Greeks believed that semen was made in the brain, while the Qur'an described the source in the human body exactly (not the testicles). The people at the time did not have any significant understanding of space, and to state that it is expanding is decades ahead of its time. To describe planets as moving as well as moving around themselves is decades ahead of its time. The Greeks believed that their Gods lived at the top of Mount Olympus, how come the Qur'an doesn't say so with regards to mountains? I can literally keep going.

The people of Arabia at the time were so simple, that if they wanted to spread news they would climb atop a hill and take off all their clothes to grab everyone's attention. A lot of people were illiterate. These are simple Bedouin people. The Qur'an does not even reflect Biblical statements about nature. How does such a simple people come up with statement in the Qur'an describing the seas internal waves (only discovered with modern equipment) and deep darkness:

"Or (they are) as darkness (es) in a tumultuous sea (vast and deep) enveloped by waves above which are waves, upon which are clouds: darknesses above each other, (Some of them "are" above some "others") when he brings out his hand, he could almost not see it. And for whomever Allah makes no light, then in no way (can) he have light." - The Holy Qur'an [24:40]

Did you know that the Qur'an has mathematical qualities as well? The 'signs' never stop. God isn't leaving people without proof.

For example, the number of times words are mentioned when counted prove very interesting results. These are the number of times the following words appear in the Qur'an:

Angels - 88
Devils - 88

This world - 115
Next world - 115

Man - 24
Woman - 24

Worry – 13 times
Reassurence – 13 times

Belief – 25 times
Disbelief – 25 times

Allah loves - 17 times-
Allah loves not - 17 times

Rich-24 times -
Poor- 12 times

Love-17 times
Hate-17 times

Obedience-3 times
Disobedience-3 times

I can literally keep going. There are many many examples but I only listed a few to make the point. Lets make it even more interesting:

Day - 365
Month - 12

Still not impressed?

If you take the number of times 'land' is mentioned and 'sea' is mentioned and you take the ratio of both numbers you get the ratio of land to sea on Earth. Incredible.

When we realize that there may be more to this counting we discover that there are even more advanced patterns. Much more mind blowing in my opinion where even specific letters are counted. For example, in the Qur'an there are verses that begin the Surahs (chapters) that are composed of stand-alone letters. We are told that they play a special role and are signs themselves (miracles) and that only God knows their purpose. They play a special linguistic role but recently have been discovered to mean much more:

The Surah 'Taha' begins:

1) Ta-Ha
2) We have not sent down to you the Qur'an that you be distressed
3) But only as a reminder for those who fear [ Allah ]

So as you can see the verse begins with the letter Ta and Ha. Meaningless on their own. They are just letters. There are a few other Surahs that begin with letters like this, but they all use different letters.

Now onto the cool stuff. If you count the number of times the letter Ta is mentioned in the Qur'an, the Ta mentioned at the beginning in the Surah Ta-Ha above is right in the middle. I.e. before the Surah 636 Ta's exist, then the Ta in the verse above (1), then another 636 Ta's. To think that this is just coincidence consider the Surah An-Naml (The Ant) that begins as well with:

Surah An Naml:

1) Ta-Sin
2) As guidance and good tidings for the believers
3) Who establish prayer and give zakah, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Again we see Ta Sin, two letters again. When we count the number of times the letter Ta appears in the Surah we get 27 (The Surah number) and if this is just coincidence, we count the number of times the second letter 'Sin' appears and its 93 times (the number of verses in the Surah). Incredible.

Not only is the book a guidance to mankind relating how to live our lives and offering a complete code of life and spiritual advice but it also contains statements made about the natural world way ahead of its time and also has a multitude of mathematical patterns and relationships within the book making it completely intertwined. This is how a holy book should be. Free of error and contradiction and at such a level of advancement that only the Creator could have created it. Every letter counts.

That is why God says in the Qur'an:

"Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants." - The Holy Qur'an [17:88]

God says we can't even produce one chapter like it. And the challenge has stood till today unbroken.

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Qur'an [4:82]

If you want to see more seriously cool mathematical patterns let me know! There are soo many very detailed ones. Mind blowing.

I'll give you one more quick example before I go, from the very same Surah an-Naml (The Ant) mentioned above. Scholars try and find patterns within the Surah's and keys to help them find more patterns. They decided to count the letter 'wowe' (pronounced not like wow, but almost like woah) due to reasons I can explain in detail if you want.

In the Surah,

They found that 15 different verses contained the letter wowe once.

They found that ANOTHER 15 verses contained the letter wowe twice.

They found that ANOTHER 15 verses contained the letter wowe thrice.

They found that ANOTHER 15 verses contained the letter wowe four times.

and if that wasn't enough they found that ANOTHER 15 verses contained the letter wowe five times. And 5 is one of the unique numbers of Islam that keeps coming up i.e. the 5 daily prayers, the 5 pillars of Islam.

Now tell me. Can you write a coherent story, counting every letter as you went along? Counting how many times you used the letters a,b and c for example? Ensuring that 15 sentences contained the letter c once, then twice, then three times, then four, then five?! ALL DIFFERENT SENTENCES, while also making statements about the natural world decades ahead of its time? and also starting your story off with the letters a-b and counting the number of times a is mentioned to correlate to the chapter number then b is mentioned to correlate to the number of sentences. All in the same story?! Can you? Given that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate and these discoveries are just being made (literally hundreds more man if this blows your mind I can show you many many more), this is why the Qur'an was stated to be a book of 'signs' for all times. This is why God stays hidden, he is testing us. He gave his Prophets (pbut) miracles to force the people of their time to think. When Jesus (pbuh) cured the blind and lepure, people used their brains to deduce that such a thing is not possible normally and thus a divine source is the only explanation.

The miracle of the last Prophet (pbuh) sent onto mankind is not just a few words of advice, it is a miracle that will last till the end of time for all nations. A miracle that can be read, reflected upon and understood well. The Qur'an is that miracle. Muslims believe God is fair, he's going to judge people differently. If someone lived on an Island his whole life and never heard about Islam he/she is judged differently to someone who has come into contact with the message - they may actually go to heaven and its upto God to make that judgement. Similarly in Islam, everyone deserves to see the miracle. God isn't just going to ask you to have blind faith. He's going to give you some 'signs' some sort of proof to leave you wondering. To have you think and try deduce other explanations so that you can have reasons for faith in God. He's not going to send all the other Prophets (pbut) with miracles so that their peoples can believe and leave the last Prophet (pbuh) without anything for the world after his death. The Prophet (pbuh) performed miracles during his lifetime for those people, but the Qur'an is the miracle for the rest of time that God himself said he would preserve and that no one would be able to change it.

If you want any more examples of either, scientific or mathematical patterns let me know! I'd be thrilled to share some!! Just mind boggling stuff

[Diagoras]

[Replying to post 14 by Abdelrahman]

Regarding all those ‘mathematical signs’, I’d just point you to a more likely explanation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

Seeing patterns in holy texts (the Bible, Torah, Qur’an) is surprisingly common. It would pay to read up on the ‘Texas Sharpshooter’ fallacy as well.

[Abdelrahman]

Regarding all those ‘mathematical signs’, I’d just point you to a more likely explanation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

Hey there Diagoras! From the above website:

Apophenia (/æpoʊˈfi�niə/) is the tendency to mistakenly perceive connections and meaning between unrelated things.

I'm not seeing the face of Jesus (pbuh) in my birthmark (completely unrelated things) but the words that I'm finding patterns with are completely related.

Good/Evil
Angels/Devils
This world/Next world
Man/Woman
Belief/Disbelief
Allah loves/Allah loves not
Rich/Poor
Love/Hate
Obedience/Disobedience

Clearly these words are all related, if not exact opposites to each other. If you are not convinced that the words are related I can show you verses where the two words are related in the same verse. Here are a few more examples of words mentioned exactly the same number of times in the entire Qur'an:

Summer/Winter
Close/Away
Benefit/Harm
East sunrise/West sunset
Your day/Their day
Brother/Sister
Old man/Old woman
Sleep/Dream
Morning/Evening
Wine/Drunkness
That day/Judgement day
Say (332) / They said (332)
Jesus's disciples/Monks,priests etc
Bees/honey
Glorification/Those who glorify

In the Qur'an verse [3:59] God compares the likeness of Jesus (pbuh) to Adam (pbuh), that both were created the same (with no father) and thus you should not call Jesus the son of God or Adam would have more of a right to be called Son of God.

"Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was."

So we continue:

Adam (25)/Jesus (25)
Satan/Seeking refuge from
Action (108)/Reward (108)
Ship/Drowning
Few (75)/Thankful (75)
Sick/Hurt
Guidance (79)/Mercy (79)
Enlightening/Intellect (understanding)
Justice/Balance
Hell (77)/Paradise (77)
Jewish 'Sabbath' - 7 times

Clearly somethings going on. This isn't even all of it. Clearly all these words are related if not exact opposites to each other. A very clear pattern emerges and to suggest that it's just coincidence is pretty ridiculous.

Seeing patterns in holy texts (the Bible, Torah, Qur’an) is surprisingly common. It would pay to read up on the ‘Texas Sharpshooter’ fallacy as well.

I have studied such patterns. Nothing compares to the Qur'an. Nothing of this significance. I've looked at the very few examples of the numerical patterns in the Bible, for example:

https://openoureyeslord.com/2018/02/06/ ... d-studies/

The words they relate are conjunctions like 'AND' (28364) and 'THE' (28269). How are AND and THE related? Is AND the exact opposite of THE? More over they are not even equal in number just close in number - 28364 compared to 28269. More examples they use are 'EARTH' (1088) and 'DID' (1084), 'THERE' (2496) and 'PEOPLE' (2271). All these examples are clearly not related and not even equal in number. If Christians are trying to say by such things that God is so advanced, numerical patterns exist in the Bible then why aren't the numbers at least equal or for words that are related? Isn't God all powerful, why didn't he make AND and THE exactly equal in number, surely He has infinite knowledge it would've been nothing to Him.

The examples I've provided above from the Qur'an are not only exact opposites to each other or clearly related, they are exactly equal in number, clearly being done on purpose.

You simple cannot compare the two. Respectfully, the Qur'an is far more superior a text when it comes to such patterns and scientific statements about the natural world. The Qur'an simply does not contradict modern understanding like the Bible does. Christians believe the world is 5,000 years old, and those who don't clearly don't believe the Bible. The Bible also states that the smallest seed is the mustard seed - untrue. I can go on and on and on. They are completely different texts.

Even the concepts of God are different. In Islam God is Merciful, He does not need to punish Himself to forgive you for YOUR sin, He simply just forgives. You just have to ask sincerely and follow up a sin with good deeds. God cannot die, if he dies he's not God. God is an entity beyond our perception and physical universe. He is the Creator of time itself so how can you say that God has an animal son? That He begets just like the animals?! Glory be to Him He is beyond such degrading characteristics that man has given to Him without knowledge. That is why the Holy Book of God cannot contain contradictions and mistakes.
God says in the Qur'an:

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Qur'an [4:82]

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 14 by Abdelrahman]

For example, the number of times words are mentioned when counted prove very interesting results. These are the number of times the following words appear in the Qur'an:

Where have all those statistics been checked and confirmed? Unsupported claims are way too easy to make and it happens all the time where religion is concerned.

[Abdelrahman]

Where have all those statistics been checked and confirmed? Unsupported claims are way too easy to make and it happens all the time where religion is concerned.

Haha, you're right. It's a shame that people brand together all of the worlds religions as if they all follow the same logical fallacies, inconsistencies and dishonest reporting of facts when as we find with Christianity. To assume that everyone else on Earth believes the same things, or that we are trying 'trick you' into conversion is not fair. I've confirmed these numbers myself (cause I'm not taking any chances with my life) and I encourage you do so too.

Here are my sources. There are numerous applications and websites that allow one to count words in the Qur'an and even the letters. The easiest would probably be:

http://numeric-quran.com/

The site is in Arabic so if you can't translate the page you can go to http://numeric-quran.com/search_by_word.php and type words in their Ottoman style in arabic to search them.

The new groundbreaking research being done on the letter counting is from the people down at www.quranway.com. They are an organization based in either Saudi Arabia or Kuwait (I forgot but you can easily look it up). An organization as such would not exist in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait if it hadn't had been audited by the government there. Muslims are very strict on 'innovating things in religion', as that is what we believe happened to the rest of the religions on Earth. Jesus (pbuh) came and would have never recognized his name if you called him 'Jesus' yet the Western Church had to give him a European English name. The same with Peter, John etc... All biblical figures but man changes scripture to what suites them best.

People constantly change the Bible, printing different versions of 'Gods words' all the time. This is innovation and results in the religion itself changing over time, away from its original message. The council of Nicaea (where the concept of the trinity was born) is a perfect example of this.

So ANY research being done on the Qur'an in the Gulf countries MUST pass government approval. The fact that these organizations are in the Middle East means that not only has it been reviewed by the original researcher but by everyone who comes into contact with the research from the government. This ground breaking work is only just being translated into English by people like BINIMAD AL-ATEEQI.

I personally also, have an obsession, with the signs in the Qur'an as they are why I believe in the God of Abraham (pbuh) and Noah (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh). So I myself have done my own research and discovered some interesting findings of my own (not sure if it's been done before by someone else but it might've).

Those are my sources. I can name several other websites and applications as well. If I was here fooling you or trying to trick you, then everyone else can see that. And people can go verify what I say. I truly am not here to fool you cause then I'd be fooling myself. Plus I gain nothing from fooling you, unlike Christian churches that gain MONEY from you attending their church and professing your sins.

Honestly, your message made me happy cause you weren't debating the miraculous-ness of my claim. It's pretty clear the words are related and the patterns are astonishing, but you were more interested in the source. That made me happy.

Keep an eye out for more posts from me about the mathematical miracles in the Qur'an. I will be translating some of this work myself and posting it up here for people to see! God never stops showing His signs!

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 14 by Abdelrahman]

I have only mentioned a few to you, but trust me, there are hundreds of 'signs' in the Qur'an that point to a divine source for the text.

Only if you interpret them that way. The Qur'an was written by men, just like the bible and other so-called "holy" books, and people who believe they are inspired or influenced by some divine being continuously try to find justification for that idea by custom interpretations of the text.

Did you know that the Qur'an has mathematical qualities as well? The 'signs' never stop. God isn't leaving people without proof.

These "numerical miracles" are just another example of cherry picking and misinterpretation. For example, here is a better explanation of the 365 mentions of the word "day" that makes a lot more sense:

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/365_days_mir ... _the_Quran

By cherry picking with a particular point in mind, you can find things like this in any book. And, of course, there are many things like a flat earth that are incompatible with modern science but of course those aren't mentioned. The Qur'an is just another holy book written by men, and people who believe it had divine input will try to find ways to prove that point by cherry picking and making custom interpretations. But this kind of trickery doesn't prove any divine input ... it is just word games and number games.

[Abdelrahman]

Only if you interpret them that way. The Qur'an was written by men, just like the bible and other so-called "holy" books, and people who believe they are inspired or influenced by some divine being continuously try to find justification for that idea by custom interpretations of the text.

I showed you above how the verse about the source of water for springs that gush out of the Earth is ahead of its time. You said that it was simple for man to guess such a cycle then I showed you how the great Leonardo Da Vinci thought that river water was composed of ocean water that seeped through the Earth... are you telling me that Muhammad (pbuh) understood the natural world better than Leonardo? Hundreds of years before his time... Since you have not addressed my reply I will assume that it's been settled and that the Qur'an wins the argument.

These are not custom interpretations as much as you'd like to believe they are. We do not fall under the same textual inconsistencies as our Christian bretherin. The Qur'an really says that the universe is expanding, and really says that the mountains are moving, and really says that the water from rivers is solely from rain water. No wild interpretation necessary, it's just simple clear arabic. When you look into the details, we realize whomever wrote the text had a much greater understanding of the natural world than existed at his (pbuh) time and upto hundreds of years after up to the modern day.

These "numerical miracles" are just another example of cherry picking and misinterpretation. For example, here is a better explanation of the 365 mentions of the word "day" that makes a lot more sense:

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/365_days_mir ... _the_Quran

Comon man, you can't be that desperate! wikiislam really? I highly suggest you don't use their work, they deliberately lie about definitions and have greatly misunderstood the language of arabic.

Let me bash that article in 30 seconds for you so that even you can see why they are not honest people. I wonder why..

In the article, they say that Muslims did not count the word 'نَهار' which also means 'day' according to them. And that there are another 57 occurence of said word and thus 365 is not the correct number.

Did you even confirm this information or did you just copy and paste? You have to be honest with yourself if you're going to debate me man otherwise you're going to end up looking real bad. Double check everything.

A quick google translate of the word 'نَهار' gives day, which is what I assume the writers of wikiislam did and thus they assumed it means day...cause you know...google translate is the most accurate translator.

A quick search on the Cambridge dictionary website translator gives a more accurate definition:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... arabic/day

نَهار in arabic refers to day time. It is the hours of the day that contain light. It is not a full day. If you translate 'daytime' you get نَهار. And if this wasn't enough go back to google and translate daytime you get 'نَهار'. Wow. You simply just need to confirm your sources before coming on here with them, and wikiislam seriously needs to step up their game.

On the website they also count ALL forms of the word 'day'. Including 'Their day', 'That day' and 'Your days' and 'two days'. I already showed above how 'that day' equals the number of times 'judgement day' appears. Because guess what, when 'that day' is used in the Qur'an it is referring to judgement day and thus the correlation.

As for the plural forms. We are not counting 'their day' 'your days' and 'two days' because those words contain possesive adjectives.. i.e. your, their. It is not the single simple word 'day'. When we count the word 'day' we get 365 and when we count 'month' we get 12. Simple. No one is cherry picking, there are not 365 'theirs days' in a year... or 365 'two days' these sentences don't make sense in arabic or english for that matter.

Sooo please man, confirm your sources. Otherwise it's just going to look bad. Also, you have not addressed any of the other word counts NOR letter counts. Assuming that they are correct (for arguments sake since i can literally show you verse by verse if you like and bash any wikiislam article you send me), do you agree that it is somewhat miraculous. A text where every single word is counted throughout the entire book, where every letter is accounted for, and still providing spritual advice and relating the natural world accurately. Then it asks us to 'think'... so I ask you... are you 'thinking'?

I have references for all the verses myself and if you were honest with yourself in this debate, you would confirm it for yourself before copying and pasting from somewhere desperate to prove us wrong whatever way possible - even by mis-translating and mis-representing the Arabic language thinking that non-Arabic speakers wouldn't pick up on it. Thank God I am a fluent Arabic speaker

By cherry picking with a particular point in mind, you can find things like this in any book. And, of course, there are many things like a flat earth that are incompatible with modern science but of course those aren't mentioned. The Qur'an is just another holy book written by men, and people who believe it had divine input will try to find ways to prove that point by cherry picking and making custom interpretations. But this kind of trickery doesn't prove any divine input ... it is just word games and number games.

Actually, the Bible hints that the Earth is flat by stating that by climbing a mountain to its top you can see all the kingdoms of the world. A view reflected by the uneducated at the time. The Qur'an simply doesn't have these issues. When we study each verse properly, and honestly, we simply find that the scientific statements being made are decades ahead of their time.

Here is what some famous scientists in their respective fields have had to say about our 'word games and number games', I am copying statements from the website islamic-awareness.org:

Professor Keith L. Moore, Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist, Author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).

He said:

"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah."

We have E. Marshall Johnson, Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. Author of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments.

He said:

"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."

"As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...

I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..."

We have T.V.N. Persaud, Professor of Anatomy, and Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.Author and editor of over 20 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. Co-author of The Developing Human (5th Edition, with Keith L. Moore). He received the J.C.B. Grant Award in 1991. Professor Peraud presented several research papers.

He said:

We're talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature...

I personally can't see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements."

We have Alfred Kroner, Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany. Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and Hadith which he studied and commented upon.

He said:

"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...

If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."

We have Yushidi Kusan, Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan. Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani presented a number of Qur'anic verses describing the beginnings of the universe and of the heavens, and the relationship of the earth to the heavens. He expressed his astonishment, saying that the Qur'an describes the universe as seen from the highest observation point, everything is distinct and clear.

He said:

"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'an, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'an and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."

And many many many more scientists. These are distinguished professionals in their fields and unless you have over 20 books authored in a specific field I would say that they understand the science of their specialty better than you and I. All those statements have references that can be backed up and confirmed. I would not put them up here having not confirmed them myself.

So, again, simple wild interpretations? If so, how come such great scientists have said that its origin is divine or impossible to explain giving the time frame of when it was revealed. They could have simply said 'its too vague', 'thats a wild interpretation' etc. But naayyy, we get the opposite.

I recommend you confirm your sources, double check your numbers, use the calculators I've put up here to count the words yourself. If you want a list of references from me for any word count I'll gladly walk you through them. It is not cherry picking, and it is not some wild interpretation.

I conclude with the verse:

"We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?" - The Holy Qur'an [41:53]