Subjective Morality

Post by **The Tanager** » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:57 pm

I started this post out of another discussion with Divine Insight. DI has made some arguments for morality being subjective. I'm still trying to get the terminology straight.

Divine Insight wrote:If morality is not absolute, then it can only be subjective. A matter of opinion.

We need to get our terms straight when talking about our human morality. I agree with you concerning 'subjective' being a matter of opinion. Objective, then, would mean not being a matter of opinion. Just like the shape of the earth is not a matter of opinion. X is good or bad for everyone.

Absolute vs. situational is a sub-issue concerning objectivism. The absolutist would say X is good or bad for everyone (and thus objectivism) no matter the situation. The situationalist would say X is good or bad for everyone but qualified by the situation.

In this phrasing, morality can be objectivist without being absolute. Now, I don't care if these are the terms we agree upon or not, but there must be some term for each concept I've presented. If you want to use "absolute" for "objective" above, that's fine. But you've got to tell me what two terms you want to use for what I termed the "absolute vs. situational" sub-issue.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:15 am

The Tanager wrote: Are you saying "best" is a synonym for "matches my view" or a distinct concept?

They are distinct concepts. Best means something along the lines of highest scoring according to a standard. The relevant standard here, happens to be my views.

It looks like we understand different things by the phrase 'the guy asking the question.' It seems to me that your view says both of these things:

(1) When faced with the question of whether to abuse a child or not, Bust Nak [i.e., the guy asking the question] should not abuse a child because that matches Bust Nak's personal opinion on the matter.

(2) When faced with the question of whether to abuse a child or not, The Tanager [i.e., the guy now asking the question] should not abuse a child because that matches Bust Nak's personal opinion on the matter.

Your answer is dependent upon the mind of the guy asking the question (you), but my answer is not dependent upon the guy asking the question (me).

Nah, I am only saying (1). When you, The Tanager, are the guy asking the question, you are the one providing the answer as to what should and should not be allowed.

Also note that the guy doing the (hypothetical or otherwise) abusing need not be the same as the guy asking the question. What that in mind, I am also saying the following:

When faced with the question of whether The Tanager should abuse a child or not, The Tanager should not abuse a child because that matches Bust Nak's [i.e., still the guy asking the question] personal opinion on the matter.

Post by **The Tanager** » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:30 am

Bust Nak wrote:
Are you saying "best" is a synonym for "matches my view" or a distinct concept?[/i]

They are distinct concepts. Best means something along the lines of highest scoring according to a standard. The relevant standard here, happens to be my views.
But "highest scoring according to Bust Nak's views" is equivalent to how well it matches your view, making them synonymous.

Bust Nak wrote:
It looks like we understand different things by the phrase 'the guy asking the question.' It seems to me that your view says both of these things:

(1) When faced with the question of whether to abuse a child or not, Bust Nak [i.e., the guy asking the question] should not abuse a child because that matches Bust Nak's personal opinion on the matter.

(2) When faced with the question of whether to abuse a child or not, The Tanager [i.e., the guy now asking the question] should not abuse a child because that matches Bust Nak's personal opinion on the matter.

Your answer is dependent upon the mind of the guy asking the question (you), but my answer is not dependent upon the guy asking the question (me).
Nah, I am only saying (1). When you, The Tanager, are the guy asking the question, you are the one providing the answer as to what should and should not be allowed.

Also note that the guy doing the (hypothetical or otherwise) abusing need not be the same as the guy asking the question. What that in mind, I am also saying the following:

When faced with the question of whether The Tanager should abuse a child or not, The Tanager should not abuse a child because that matches Bust Nak's [i.e., still the guy asking the question] personal opinion on the matter.
Both my (1) and (2) have you making the moral judgment (what you seem to mean by asking the question). My "asking/facing the question" means the one in the moral situation that will be acting. You think that when I'm faced with committing the abuse or not, that I should not commit abuse. You think I should not act subjectively (assuming for the sake of argument that I wanted to commit abuse), but according to something independent of my mind: your subjective view.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:49 am

The Tanager wrote: But "highest scoring according to Bust Nak's views" is equivalent to how well it matches your view, making them synonymous.

Sure, but that wasn't what I was asked. I was asked if "best" is a synonym for "matches my view," instead of whether "highest scoring according to Bust Nak's views" is a synonym for "matches my view." There are any number of ways best can be determined.

Both my (1) and (2) have you making the moral judgment (what you seem to mean by asking the question). My "asking/facing the question" means the one in the moral situation that will be acting. You think that when I'm faced with committing the abuse or not, that I should not commit abuse.

That's a bit odd, but okay. To me, "should X do Y?" is the question. The guy facing that question can only be the one judging the situation, which may or may not be the guy acting.

You think I should not act subjectively (assuming for the sake of argument that I wanted to commit abuse), but according to something independent of my mind: your subjective view.

No, I want you to act subjectively, i.e. according to something dependent of my mind: my subjective view.

Post by **The Tanager** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:39 am

Bust Nak wrote:
You think I should not act subjectively (assuming for the sake of argument that I wanted to commit abuse), but according to something independent of my mind: your subjective view.
No, I want you to act subjectively, i.e. according to something dependent of my mind: my subjective view.

It is subjective in relation to you but not to me. It is just as non-subjective in relation to me as is the shape of the earth.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:54 am

The Tanager wrote: It is subjective in relation to you but not to me. It is just as non-subjective in relation to me as is the shape of the earth.

Why are you inserting yourself into my opinion? There is no "in relation to you" at all. You have no part in this because you are not the one judging the situation, I am.

Post by **The Tanager** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:41 am

Bust Nak wrote:
The Tanager wrote: It is subjective in relation to you but not to me. It is just as non-subjective in relation to me as is the shape of the earth.
Why are you inserting yourself into my opinion? There is no "in relation to you" at all. You have no part in this because you are not the one judging the situation, I am.

The situation you are judging involves me in the situation. You have inserted me there and are claiming that what you think I should do is follow something outside of my own subjective opinion on the matter, right?

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:21 am

The Tanager wrote: The situation you are judging involves me in the situation. You have inserted me there and are claiming that what you think I should do is follow something outside of my own subjective opinion on the matter, right?

Right, which makes me the judge, and it means it's relative to me, which is why I said there is no "relative to you" here.

Post by **The Tanager** » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:23 pm

Bust Nak wrote:Right, which makes me the judge, and it means it's relative to me, which is why I said there is no "relative to you" here.

But, as judge, are you not saying that what is best for me is judged properly by you? That your opinion on what is best for me is better than what I may think is best for me? With "better" not simply being "matches Bust Nak's opinion"?

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:34 am

The Tanager wrote: But, as judge, are you not saying that what is best for me is judged properly by you That your opinion on what is best for me is better than what I may think is best for me?

Yes to both. Still not seeing how that brings "relative to you" into the picture.

With "better" not simply being "matches Bust Nak's opinion"?

Kinda, "better" as measure by "matches Bust Nak's opinion."

Post by **The Tanager** » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:59 pm

Bust Nak wrote:
The Tanager wrote: But, as judge, are you not saying that what is best for me is judged properly by you That your opinion on what is best for me is better than what I may think is best for me?

Yes to both. Still not seeing how that brings "relative to you" into the picture.

You seem to be saying that "It is better to not abuse a child," is a statement whose truth depends on Bust Nak's personal opinion. You, the person making this statement, believes it is true for yourself as well as for other people (whether they share your opinion or not). So, you think that the thing that makes this statement true for me is independent of my mind (and, therefore, objective to me). You also think that the thing that makes this statement true for you is not independent of your mind (and, therefore, subjective or relative to you).