Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

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Tcg
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Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

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Some accuse atheists of not understanding the Bible given that they acknowledge that the Bible contains contradictions.

An example of a contradiction is included in the story of the demons cast into a herd of 2,000 pigs. Both gospel Mark (5:2) and gospel Luke (8:27) state that Jesus met "a man." The gospel Matthew (8:28) claims that Jesus met "two demon-possessed men."

Matthew clearly contradicts both Mark and Luke. Some may argue that this isn't a contradiction because neither Mark or Luke state Jesus met one and only one man. They may explain that Jesus in fact met two men, but that Mark and Luke only mentioned one of them.

I suppose we could stretch this further and claim that there were actually four demon possessed men. Matthew mentioned two of them, Mark mentioned one, and Luke mentioned the last. We could of course push it further and claim there were 98 demon possessed men and the gospel authors only mentioned four of them.

None of these are reasonable explanations. It is clear that Matthew's count contradicts both Mark and Luke's.

Is it only atheists who acknowledge Bible contradictions like the one above?

Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions whether or not it includes the one mentioned above?


Tcg
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Re: Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

Post #81

Post by Abdelrahman »

Only when Christians and Muslims stop telling their children that there is a god that loves them so much as to send them to a heaven, yet hates the other so much as to send them to a hell, will we ever stop the violence and bloodshed.
I don't think its the belief in Heaven and Hell per say that has lead to violence between the two groups since we both agree that a Heaven and Hell exist. Violence does not occur when two groups agree on something, but disagree.
You are proud of your holy book and you think it special. Just like every other religious person out there. Therefore, you being impressed with the book looses its luster for the rest of us. (Doesn't mean your beliefs are wrong of course, but they are not unique).
I am impressed by my book because it contains statements about the natural world decades ahead of its time and tells us that these verses are 'signs' for the existence of God for those who 'reflect' and 'ponder'. There are mathematical patterns that prove beyond a doubt that no man could have written the text. I assure you what Muslims believe is very unique. Our text does not contain self-contradictions and blatant errors when it comes to the description of the natural world.

God says in the Qur'an:

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Qur'an [4:82]

In Islam, there is no such thing as blind faith. We have reasons, proofs and signs for a Creator whose fingerprints are all over the book. (Check out my thread here on the topic: viewtopic.php?t=37080&start=0) Our very concept of God is different. God does not die, if He dies He's not God. God does not need to punish Himself for YOUR sin. It just doesn't make any sense.

I don't understand why it is so difficult for Christians to believe that God sent another Prophet (pbuh) to mankind. Or is it that God only loves the children of Israel and white Europe? How about the Asians? The Arabs? The Indians? Surely God has sent Prophets to all nations, and after people wrongly claimed that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God, Glory be to Him!, He sent another prophet (pbuh) to remind mankind that no...the example of Jesus (pbuh) to God is like that of Adam (pbuh), both were created without fathers. It was in the council of Nicaea, hundreds of years after Jesus (pbuh) that we witness the birth of the trinity - a word never uttered once by Jesus (pbuh) nor is it in the Bible.

But the Jews reject Jesus (pbuh) such as the Christians reject Muhammad (pbuh), everyones thinking that God loves them more and would not send a Prophet to another nation. Muslims are the only people that say, Moses (pbuh) is correct, Jesus (pbuh) is correct and so is Muhammad (pbuh) all are great prophets of God and we do not differentiate between any of them. Abraham (pbuh) never preached of a son of God, Noah (pbuh) never warned of a son, Lot (pbuh) never told his people to accept that God will come and die for their sins in the future. The trinity is never uttered by any of these Prophets of God. If he taught Abraham (pbuh) to teach his followers to repent to the One God, then why does Jesus (pbuh) come later to die for our sins? What did the followers of Abraham (pbuh) do? Are they in Hell for not believing that Jesus (pbuh) will come and die for them? has the son died for them? Or did God admit them into paradise simple by forgiving them? Why does God need to punish Himself for OUR SINS? Did He not create us and know that we will sin? If the wage for every sin is death then why did He design us so flawed? Why can't God be like what he instructed to Abraham (pbuh) to teach his people? Why the new concept? Because of the virgin birth. It does not make sense to step out of line and state that the very Creator of Time is limited to the animal act of begetting - Glory be to Him!

Why does this surprise me though. Christians are the same people that came up with Santa Claus and celebrate the birth of their Saviour on a pagan holiday (Jesus was very clearly not born in the winter in the Bible) - but hey, what sells right?
What are your thoughts on the indoctrination that Muslims and Christians do to their children when it comes to heaven and hell and how it produces division and violence in this world?

Should only Muslims tell their children such things, or should Christians as well? Would the world be better off if all religions taught such a concept? Would the world be less divisive and violent if we abondoned teaching out children such things?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Well like I said, I don't think it's the concepts of Heaven and Hell that lead to fighting between the two groups. As we both agree. Fear of Hell and want of Heaven should drive people away from killing innocents. In Islam, it very clearly forbids the killing of innocent people. That if you kill any innocent person you will go to Hell.

What I think does create violence however, is the concept of Holy War and Holy Land. We fight over Holy Land. And uneducated people are brainwashed into thinking that they are doing Gods work when they join terrorist groups like ISIS. This is the problem. Miseducation for political agendas.

We must go to the children of Pakistan and Afghanistan and say "Hey, I know the drone we sent over last week trying to catch one guy ended up wiping out your entire village...our bad...please don't attack us?"

It is very difficult for a child who lost his family (with no statement of apology from the attacking government) who is now politically motivated, to not get brainwashed into suicide bombings and the such. They are village people. Uneducated on their religion. Do they not know that to take one's own life destines one to Hell? They think they are going to Heaven but in Islam suicide is forbidden and sends you straight to Hell.

In fact Murder is so forbidden, that we are told, if you kill someone innocent who was destined for Hell, you end up taking His/Her place and they take yours. I.e. you swap places and if you were destined for Heaven they take your spot! But hey, this isn't going to make you feel any better about your parents dying, but you know what might? Revenge. Total miseducation.

This is why terrorism exists. Foreign policy and politics. It is not religion since the religion very very very clearly bans such acts completely. We even have rules to War, that it must be defensive. That you must not cut down trees and disrupt animals. The Prophet (pbuh) once left a group of soldiers to guard a bird's nest out of fear that the army marching would stomp upon them. A bird's nest man. Are you telling me any army today would do that? Nayyyy. Some armies practice their rounds on animals. This is forbidden in Islam.

What Muslims need is someone to broadcast their voices. Non-Muslims to just read about Islam before being so quick to judge. The majority of scholars of Islam condemn violence. The majority of scholars condemn ISIS, but do we hear their voices? No, because it doesn't sell. Fear and hate sells. The media makes more money off the opposite stories. They simply do not report about the brave soldiers in Syria fighting ISIS. Muslims fighting ISIS yes...believe that! I am a practicing devout Muslim of 28 years...and I have never come into contact with anyone Muslim who did not condemn ISIS or Al-Qaeda, and I've lived in the Middle East for over 16 years.

We also need education in the war stricken areas of the world. Iraq has no nuclear weapons, yet thousands if not millions remain angry and displaced for the mistake of assuming they did. Of course they never did, it was all about the oil in the end of the day. How do you expect such people to react? It is no surprise why these groups emerged out of the Middle East, and Muslims are doing their best to educate people on the religion. But to say that these groups are 'religious' or 'Islamic' is so beyond what Islam is its ridiculous.

I urge every non-Muslim to educate themselves on what Muslims believe. Read the Qur'an. We are not your enemies. I love you all for the sake of God we are all brothers and sisters in humanity!

Thank you Clownboat for the question!

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Post #82

Post by Elijah John »

Wootah wrote: Has any single Christian on this site acknowledged a specific contradiction yet?
Yes, the author of Hebrews insists that "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" vs. Luke who tells us that John the Baptist "performed baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins". No blood involved, only the water of repentance, i.e. baptism.

That is a major thematic and theological contradiction, not simply a matter of petty detail.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

Post #83

Post by Elijah John »

(Replying to post # 66 by Abdelrahman)

Shalom and Salaam, Abdelrahman.

Thank you for your kind words. I arrived at my theological positions though God-given common sense, observation, and also the influence of historical Jesus authors (who do not believe Jesus ever claimed to be God) as well a by studying Judaism AND Islam.

Growing up Catholic, I long observed a difference in emphasis between the teachings of Jesus and the theology of Paul. In the back of my mind. And also between the Gospel of John, and the Synoptics, (Matthew, Mark and Luke). I think I suspected even back then that Jesus was a true monotheist, not a Trinitarian in any way. Then I stumbled on passages like Matthew 16.28 where Jesus is said to have predicted the 2nd coming in the lifetime of his apostles. "Some standing here will not taste death until you see the Son of Man coming in his glory" with his Father's angels, and rewarding and punishing. Obviously, that hasn't happened, and did not happen in New Testament times. So that led me to a period of questioning. "Was Jesus wrong"? "Were the Gospel's as we have them, wrong?" Now, I suspect a bit of both. Now, I see Jesus as an inspired prophet, but not perfect in every detail.

And I have read English translations of the Qur'an. Though I do not see that as perfect either, I think it is inspired by God as well. And I do believe Mohammed was a prophet sent to the the Arab nation, (the children of Ishmael as promised).

I see myself now as a Deistic, Monotheistic Christian. Still technically a member of the RCC, but I think they would now consider me a "heretic".

Deism is belief in God based on Nature and Reason, as opposed to Revelation. I am not a pure Deist, but rather "Deistic in my approach to religion and Christianity.
Skeptical of claims such as walking on water, but seeing Creation as the biggest miracle of all. I see God's hand in that.

One thing I love about the Qur'an is it's repeated appeals to Reason. The oft repeated refrain "these are signs for thinking men" is very Deistic and inspiring.

So to sum it up, I see neither the Bible or the Qur'an as perfect in every detail, but I do see both as inspired. Both wonderful sources for Spiritual inspiration and guidance.

All the best, and God Bless.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

Post #84

Post by Clownboat »

Abdelrahman wrote:
Only when Christians and Muslims stop telling their children that there is a god that loves them so much as to send them to a heaven, yet hates the other so much as to send them to a hell, will we ever stop the violence and bloodshed.
I don't think its the belief in Heaven and Hell per say that has lead to violence between the two groups

Agreed. I believe we need parents to stop telling their children that there is a god that will send the 'others' to a hell of sorts. This unevidenced indoctrination is evil IMO and justifies atrocities committed by some.
"Now son/daughter, don't fret over them, they deserve eternal torment in hell." There is no good in these teachings.
Violence does not occur when two groups agree on something, but disagree.
And there it is. One group disagreeing with the other about what a god wants. The disagreement is so strong that some in both groups feel justified in indoctrinating their children that the others that they disagree with deserve a hell.
(Not all members of these religions do this of course, just addressing those that do, like the home I was raised in).
You are proud of your holy book and you think it special. Just like every other religious person out there. Therefore, you being impressed with the book loses its luster for the rest of us. (Doesn't mean your beliefs are wrong of course, but they are not unique).
I am impressed by my book...
That was my claim and I was comparing that claim to those of other religions that are also impressed with their holy book.

<snipped examples of things that impress you>
What are your thoughts on the indoctrination that Muslims and Christians do to their children when it comes to heaven and hell and how it produces division and violence in this world?

Should only Muslims tell their children such things, or should Christians as well? Would the world be better off if all religions taught such a concept? Would the world be less divisive and violent if we abandoned teaching our children such things?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Well like I said, I don't think it's the concepts of Heaven and Hell that lead to fighting between the two groups.
Addressed. Perhaps you would acknowledge the things the two groups do disagree on. For example, ask a Christian if Mohammed was a prophet for a God named Allah. Ask a Christian if a Muslim deserves to go to heaven or hell.
These disagreements are what I'm addressing, not generic heaven/hell ideas.
Fear of Hell and want of Heaven should drive people away from killing innocents.
Clearly it doesn't at least for most. See the crusades.
Pope Urban denigrated the Muslims, exaggerating stories of their anti-Christian acts, and promised absolution and remission of sins for all who died in the service of Christ.
Clearly, the disagreement between the two religions is not one of there being a heaven or a hell that can justify violence, but one where parents/pastors/priests/imams/etc... are telling their followers that the others deserve death or hell.
In Islam, it very clearly forbids the killing of innocent people. That if you kill any innocent person you will go to Hell.
And Allah guideth not those who reject faith.
— Sura Al-Baqara, v. 264
In the Quran, the term kafir is first applied to the unbelieving Meccans, and their attempts to refute and revile Muhammad. Later, Muslims are ordered to keep apart from them, defend themselves from their attacks, and finally take the offensive against them.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Qur%27an_on_non-Muslims
What I think does create violence however, is the concept of Holy War and Holy Land. We fight over Holy Land.
Agreed, this is also an issue. One not so easily solved though, unlike parents not telling their children that the 'others' deserve hell. The specific issue I'm referring to.

< more snipped, mainly for having my agreement >
Thank you Clownboat for the question!
Thank you for your response!
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I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

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Re: Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

Post #85

Post by Abdelrahman »

Shalom and Salaam, Abdelrahman.
Peace be unto you/Salam/Shalom Elijah! God bless you and increase your faith. May the One God forgive you any shortcomings and only light up your life.
Thank you for your kind words. I arrived at my theological positions though God-given common sense, observation, and also the influence of historical Jesus authors (who do not believe Jesus ever claimed to be God) as well a by studying Judaism AND Islam.
I am very interested to hear which historical Jesus authors you are referring to. I am not well versed on the historical writers, any one you are particularly fond of? I would love it if you answer this for me on separate thread (and maybe post the link here incase anyone’s interested) so that we don’t take over the original topic on this thread.
Growing up Catholic, I long observed a difference in emphasis between the teachings of Jesus and the theology of Paul. In the back of my mind. And also between the Gospel of John, and the Synoptics, (Matthew, Mark and Luke). I think I suspected even back then that Jesus was a true monotheist, not a Trinitarian in any way. Then I stumbled on passages like Matthew 16.28 where Jesus is said to have predicted the 2nd coming in the lifetime of his apostles. "Some standing here will not taste death until you see the Son of Man coming in his glory" with his Father's angels, and rewarding and punishing. Obviously, that hasn't happened, and did not happen in New Testament times. So that led me to a period of questioning. "Was Jesus wrong"? "Were the Gospel's as we have them, wrong?" Now, I suspect a bit of both. Now, I see Jesus as an inspired prophet, but not perfect in every detail.
Again, awe stricken! God only help you Elijah. So when you say ‘I suspect a bit of both�, do you think that Jesus (pbuh) was wrong? What do you mean by that? If it is because of the verses in the Bible referring to what Jesus (pbuh) supposedly said?
And I have read English translations of the Qur'an. Though I do not see that as perfect either, I think it is inspired by God as well. And I do believe Mohammed was a prophet sent to the the Arab nation, (the children of Ishmael as promised).
You do not have to share if you don’t want to, but I’d also love to know why you don’t see the Qur’an as ‘perfect’. Maybe also in the separate thread. I will not debate you on what you find ‘imperfect’ but I can try offer my explanation. I have been Muslim for 28 years and speak Arabic fluently, and I personally believe that the Qur’an has no errors and mistakes. Definitely would love to hear your point of view. I have never met someone like you!
I see myself now as a Deistic, Monotheistic Christian. Still technically a member of the RCC, but I think they would now consider me a "heretic".
Funny enough, with your theological positions Muslims would have no problem welcoming you with open arms!

And just for my own information..is RCC the Catholic Church?
Deism is belief in God based on Nature and Reason, as opposed to Revelation. I am not a pure Deist, but rather "Deistic in my approach to religion and Christianity.
Skeptical of claims such as walking on water, but seeing Creation as the biggest miracle of all. I see God's hand in that.

One thing I love about the Qur'an is it's repeated appeals to Reason. The oft repeated refrain "these are signs for thinking men" is very Deistic and inspiring.
I whole heartedly agree with seeing God’s hand in nature. I ask you this, if God is capable of creating such an intricate world filled with physical laws, is not the same God capable of breaking those laws if He so wished? Muslims believe Jesus (pbuh) truly walked on water and performed all those miracles by God’s power.
“I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?� [Jeremiah 32:27]
“..but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" – [John 10:32]
So to sum it up, I see neither the Bible or the Qur'an as perfect in every detail, but I do see both as inspired. Both wonderful sources for Spiritual inspiration and guidance.

All the best, and God Bless.
Thank you so much Elijah for answering me. Although I urge you to re-look at the Qur’an, I believe although arriving at God through reasonable reflection upon nature and ourselves is essential, that Revelation is how we’ve come to know God and how God has chosen to communicate to us. We believe the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the last prophet sent unto mankind and this time not only for the Children of Israel (they already got enough chances ;) ) but to the entire world.
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you." – [John 16:12-15]
As a Muslim I glorify Jesus (pbuh) proudly: Peace and blessings be upon Jesus, one of the greatest Prophets of Almighty God. We glorify him no doubt.
"This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion." - The Holy Qur'an [5:3]
I remember pure monotheists like you when I read:
"Surely the believers and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians – whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the last day and does good deeds – shall have their reward with their Lord and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve." - The Holy Qur'an [2:63]
Again, thank you Elijah for the response! I apologize to the original creator of this thread for kind of hijacking it! I will move my discussions elsewhere!
Last edited by Abdelrahman on Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

Post #86

Post by Abdelrahman »

Clownboat!

I have moved our discussion here out of respect for the original thread creators. I feel our topic is different to the original thread so I answered you here!

viewtopic.php?p=1008246#1008246

Thanks again!

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Re: Do some Christians acknowledge Bible contradictions?

Post #87

Post by Tcg »

Abdelrahman wrote: Clownboat!

I have moved our discussion here out of respect for the original thread creators. I feel our topic is different to the original thread so I answered you here!

viewtopic.php?p=1008246#1008246

Thanks again!
Thank-you, Abdelrahman. Thread topics tend to drift over time, but at a certain point new threads should be created. I appreciate you doing so.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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