Are we living in the last days?

[otseng]

From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.

For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

[Zzyzx]

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Really? Locusts that 'not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads'?

Are you familiar with the concept of symbolism?

Yes, quite familiar. For example 'resurrection' of gods and godmen has been used in mythology to symbolize 'rebirth' of the sun at the time of the Winter Solstice (December 21) and/or rebirth of vegetation with a new growing season.

If you suggest in the tale above that locusts are symbolic of something, what (exactly) do they symbolize with shapes like horses prepared unto battle, with heads like crowns and faces like men, and teeth like lions, and breastplates of iron, and wings, and tails like scorpions (that hurt men five months)?

What does all that flowery imagination 'symbolize'?

Are you familiar with the concept of reasoning? Critical thinking?

[JehovahsWitness]

.

Really? Locusts that 'not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads'?

Are you familiar with the concept of symbolism?

Yes, quite familiar.

So then you will known that one doesnt have to look for an eagle, wearing a red, white and blue shield, with a branche in one claw, a bunch of arrows in the other, standing spread eagle under a circular cloud with 13 stars in the middle and a ribbon in its mouth! This might be the result of "flowery imagination" but apparently millions of Americans seriously vote for governments that employ such symbolism in their agencies.

This is not to belittle or mock our American friends, it's to show that one does not have to an idiot to understand that even elaborate symbols that obviously do not exist in the real world can REPRESENT real individuals, organisations or entities and take such things seriously. Why? Because an eagle with arrows and a ribbon might not exist but the federal government of the United States most certainly does.





JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

THE LAST DAYS , MESSIANIC PROPHECY and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 182 by JehovahsWitness]

Your reply does not address the actual question asked by Zzyzx and seems very much like a dodge.

If you suggest in the tale above that locusts are symbolic of something, what (exactly) do they symbolize with shapes like horses prepared unto battle, with heads like crowns and faces like men, and teeth like lions, and breastplates of iron, and wings, and tails like scorpions (that hurt men five months)?

Could you please explain the symbolism contained in the passage in order to clarify the matter.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 183 by brunumb]

I don't "dodge", I focus on what I want to focus on and ignore that which I have no interest addressing.

I chose to focus on the idea in initial post which seemed to be suggesting that the book of REVELATION is ridiculous at least in part because it largely employs elaborate and detailed symbolism. The purpose of my post was to illustrate that symbolism (of both real and mythological creatures) are a part of life and we recognise the real entities such symbols represent and take them "seriously"



JW


THE SCOTISH SHIELD OF ARMS

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 184 by JehovahsWitness]

I trust that readers appreciate honorable debate that displays sincerity and willingness to support one's contentions rather than ducking and weaving to avoid challenges raised.

[JehovahsWitness]

.
[Replying to post 184 by JehovahsWitness]

I trust that readers appreciate honorable debate that displays sincerity and willingness to support one's contentions rather than ducking and weaving to avoid challenges raised.

My only "contention" is that revelation is SYMBOLIC. This is based on the fact that horses with snake tales, lion bodies and human hair do not exist. The initial question was "Does anyone take these verses seriously" I answered . I even took the time to explain WHY people like myself take such verses seriously, namely because we believe they symbolize things that exist in the real world.

I will be happy to explain WHAT according to the JW interprtation these verses of Revelation symbolize over at another subforum (See below). (NOTE I am not presuming to say what should or should not be posted and where, I am simply stating where *I* choose to post on this topic on this occasion (one of my brothers or sisters may choose to respond on this subforum that is their decision) I leave it for the moderators to move any posts inappropriately placed

REVELATION 9:1-21


Anybody interested enough in the Jehovah's Witnesses take on these verses is free to ask us on any of the forums below and I or one of my fellow witnesses are sure to respond.

The TD&T subforum
viewforum.php?f=38

in the subforum specifically dedicated to finding out more about a groups
viewforum.php?f=45

or on the subforum

Questions forma specific user
viewforum.php?f=26

Alternatively they can ask someone else here in this thread and wait and see if another witness (that is not me), responds.


You're welcome,


JW


RELATED POST


Is the book of Revelation: Literal or Symbolic?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#890395

Should SYMBOLISM be taken seriously?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 57#1011457

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 184 by JehovahsWitness]

I chose to focus on the idea in initial post which seemed to be suggesting that the book of REVELATION is ridiculous at least in part because it largely employs elaborate and detailed symbolism. The purpose of my post was to illustrate that symbolism (of both real and mythological creatures) are a part of life and we recognise the real entities such symbols represent and take them "seriously"

While symbolism is a part of life it does not mean that revelation is meant to be symbolic. You opened the door by saying that the content of revelation was symbolic rather than literal. It is therefore incumbent on you to justify that claim by explaining the symbolism here in this thread where the issue arose without sending us off to find it elsewhere. A simple enough exercise if what you claim is true.

[JehovahsWitness]

While symbolism is a part of life it does not mean that revelation is meant to be symbolic.

That is true. However I believe the book of Revelation is largely symbolic. For what reason? because it references things that cannot literally be found in the real world.


JW







BIBLICAL LITERALISM

What do the terms "literal" or "non-literal" mean?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 419#868419

Who decides which parts of the BIBLE are literal or non-literal?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 983#981983

HOW does one decide what is to be understood literally and what is not, in the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#890395

Why is the bible written in a way that is open to interpretation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 682#844682

Why would an omnipotent God "obscure" parts of his word in metaphor, illustration or parable?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 547#756547

Should SYMBOLISM be taken seriously?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 57#1011457

Are Jehovah's Witnesses "biblical listeralists"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 428#868428

LITERALISM & THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Is the book of Revelation: Literal or Symbolic?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#890395

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses take the number 144,000 to be literal
but not other features of this group mentioned in Rev 14:1?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#825066

To learn more please see other posts related to...

BIBLICAL LITERALISM, HERMENEUTICS* and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

* bible interpretation


FURTHER READING Josef Stern on Identifying Metaphors (blog entry)

[Goose]

Revelations 9:16ff also says that army will be on horses that have heads of lions and tales like serpents. They will breath smoke, fire, and brimstone. Their riders had red, blue, and yellow breastplates. What makes you think this is most likely China?

<bolding mine>

Presumably, we should be keeping an eye on Colombia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Romania, Moldova, Chad, and that fearsome military behemoth - Andorra.

There are numerous countries that have red, blue, and yellow in their national colours. Why are you assuming that it would be one country? Don't forget if you combine Russia's national colours with China's you have red, blue, and yellow. Not to mention the population base between the two nations is certainly large enough to conceivably build a 200 million person army. China alone has the population to do that. But then again, so does America.

Romania would be my top pick, based upon the fact that they hold Europe's largest population of feral horses. Not sure of their fire-breathing capabilities, though.

But you are back to interpreting Revelations literally when you shouldn't. It's an apocalyptic genre.


Russia's coat or arms. Red, blue, yellow, and a horse. If we allow that the reference to 200 million man army is hyperbole for a really big army it's interesting to note Russia has a 2 million man reserve army.

I'm not at all saying Revelations 9:16ff is referring to Russia or China or a combined army. In fact, I could make a similar case America could be interpreted as fitting the bill. My point is that because of the nature and characteristics of Jewish apocalyptic literature this stuff cannot be interpreted literally. The mistake I think some Christians are making is trying to use Revelations as some kind of road map for how the near term future will unfold.

[Goose]

[Replying to post 184 by JehovahsWitness]

I chose to focus on the idea in initial post which seemed to be suggesting that the book of REVELATION is ridiculous at least in part because it largely employs elaborate and detailed symbolism. The purpose of my post was to illustrate that symbolism (of both real and mythological creatures) are a part of life and we recognise the real entities such symbols represent and take them "seriously"

While symbolism is a part of life it does not mean that revelation is meant to be symbolic.

It's widely acknowledged that Revelations is a type of Apocalyptic literature. It is also widely understood that one of the characteristics of apocalyptic literature is that it is highly symbolic.

You opened the door by saying that the content of revelation was symbolic rather than literal. It is therefore incumbent on you to justify that claim by explaining the symbolism here in this thread where the issue arose without sending us off to find it elsewhere. A simple enough exercise if what you claim is true.

This doesn't follow. It doesn't follow from identifying Revelations as symbolic that it is incumbent upon anyone to justify that claim by explaining the symbolism.