Are homosexual relations sinful?

Debating issues regarding sexuality

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4311
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 191 times

Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

In Australia we're currently enduring a postal vote about gay marriage, and the Christian rhetoric which has inevitably been cropping up has reminded me of some thoughts I'd initially had back in 2006.
  • Tuesday, 9 May 2006
    It occurs to me that Christianity may very well have the wrong end of the stick in their view of God. If nothing else, surely what the old testament and the gospels teach us is that God is a covenant God. Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the new covenant; looking back, the Mosaic law is described as the old covenant; he made covenants also with Abraham and David. Perhaps we should not think of God as one who simply sits in the clouds handing out laws. Rather, he is a God who makes covenants with his people; fellowship in return for blessing. . . .

    With the people of Israel God made two covenants. The first was at Sinai, beginning with the ten commandments covering chapters 20 to 23 of Exodus. These are almost exclusively commandments of worship for God and social justice amongst the Israelites, with very little about sacrifical specifications or ritual purity. Chapter 24 describes the confirmation of this covenant and the people's agreement to abide by the terms written within the 'book of the covenant.' The second covenant was made in the lands east of the Jordan River, before Moses died and the people crossed over (Deuteronomy 29:1), and covers chapters 5 to 28 of Deuteronomy (with the earlier chapters being the preamble). Laws concerning such things as legal cases, the king, cities of refuge and warfare regulations (chapters 17 to 20) make it clear that this is essentially the constitution of the new nation of Israel.
The bible does not say that God gave any rules or commandments at all to Adam and Eve, except the bit about the tree; and similarly, Jeremiah clearly states that the new covenant to come would be "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt" (Jer. 31:31). In commenting on that passage the author of Hebrews writes "In that he says, “A new covenant,� he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

How can it be that at one time it was "sinful" to sow a field with two kinds of seed, or wear a garment made of two kinds of cloth (Leviticus 19:19), yet Christians now would almost universally consider these to be silly and outdated concepts? Why did commands like that exist in the first place? I believe they were intended to ingrain into the Israelite people the concept of their separateness from the nations around them, to reinforce and strengthen their own national identity. But then, that same kind of practical purpose seems to obviously underlie the prohibition against same-sex relations too (or the exclusion of anyone who'd suffered genital injuries in Deut. 23:1): A small nation surrounded by enemies would likely need all its people breeding to maintain its strength. Crude and even cruel though those laws may have been, at least we might be able to glean a worthy intention behind them.

But the Christian concept of "sin" as it is usually expressed seems to be utterly blind to the fact that these were part of a covenant - an agreement - between God and Israel, one which the author of Hebrews declared to be obsolete. And according to Jeremiah the new covenant is not to be found in letters of stone or ink in a book; instead "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Jer. 31:31-34). (See also my earlier thread Did apostles think they were writing the 'word of God'?)

Likewise Paul - though he himself remained hung up on homosexuality - captures the more individual nature of the New Agreement perfectly, even as he downplays the everlasting covenant of circumcision:
  • Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. . . .
    13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.


    Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’�
    12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
Have Christians got the wrong idea of "sin"?

And if the essence of God's will is simply that "You shall love your neighbour as yourself," as Paul says, isn't homosexuality one of the most obvious examples in which freedom in Christ replaces the situational rules of Israel?

An example in fact where Christian attitudes often seem to be almost the opposite of love?

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6892 times
Been thanked: 3244 times

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #51

Post by brunumb »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:33 am The bible is quite clear that all God does is perfect (complete) without fault.
The authors of the Bible are quite clear in making that claim. The world we live is quite clear in demonstrating the opposite.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
2ndRateMind
Site Supporter
Posts: 1540
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:25 am
Location: Pilgrim on another way
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #52

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:06 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:22 am ...homosexuals have a disposition to certain thoughts, words, and deeds. So either the homosexual way of being is a sin, or it is not.
A person's disposition can be defined as his inherent qualities of mind and character. I think its highly debatable whether there is a "homosexual or hetrosexual" character, even our biological sex doesn't define what kind of person we are.
So, there is some truth in this. But see my post #24 which seems to have rejuvenated this debate, somewhat.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4311
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 191 times

Re: Re:

Post #53

Post by Mithrae »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:25 am
Mithrae wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:06 am Which bits do they want to emphasize, and which bits do they want to downplay?
Well I can only speak as one of Jehovahs Witnesses. If by "downplay" you mean ignore or belittle then we don't "downplay" any part if the bible, we believe all 66 books of the bible canon are inspired of God. We do not howver believe Christians are under any part of the Mosaic law.
All Christians emphasize some parts and downplay others. Jesus' command that you cannot be his follower unless you give up all your possessions obviously being one of my common examples. His reported teaching that all those who are able to 'make themselves eunuchs' for the sake of the kingdom should do so is another: The teaching that homosexuals should abstain from their sexual desires might seem a little less bigoted and hypocritical if somewhere close to 100% of heterosexual Christians were also doing the same.

Instead it's more of a 'do as I say, not as I do' scenario. In fact Christians' decision to downplay Jesus' reported command that they should strive for celibacy instead of marriage is also probably the #1 reason for flat-out ignoring his unequivocal command to forsake all possessions: "I can't give up my home and job, who's going to provide for my kids?"


But re-reading it these years later, I think the main point of interest from the OP was not a question of particular details, but of what is 'sin' more generally: Is it a matter of a God unilaterally handing down seemingly-arbitrary commandments from the clouds (or rather, some often anonymous bronze and iron age authors claiming that they heard something from the clouds)? Is blind obedience to those commands of men what righteousness is all about?

Or is it a question of covenants, agreements, expressing or clarifying some broader coherent principle such as love for others or the 'golden rule'? Obviously if the latter, then the case for declaring loving homosexual relationships 'sinful' is tenuous at best - based on an outdated covenant for very different circumstances, to which we didn't agree - and indeed seems more often to be an unloving stance itself!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22884
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 898 times
Been thanked: 1338 times
Contact:

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #54

Post by JehovahsWitness »

bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:48 pm...why should an asexual deity care one way or the other about the sexual practices of a few consenting adults ..
WHY SHOULD GOD CARE ABOUT OUR SEXUAL BEHAVIOURS?

God cares about what we do with our bodies because He loves us and he wants us to be happy. Biblically speaking to be as happy as he designed us to be and to live as long as he wants us to live (namely forever) we must live in fill harmony with him and his moral standards. According to scripture, God designed the human body, gave us life and the power of procreation since all three come from him, they are essentially sacred and must only be used in the way he deems fit.
ISAIAH 29:16

How you twist things! Should the potter be regarded the same as the clay? Should what is made say about its maker: “He did not make me”? And does what is formed say about its former: “He shows no understanding”?

bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:20 am... what is fundamental about homosexual relations that is damaging to a relationship with an asexual God.
It's a sin. All sin damages our relationship with God. . From the moment God pronounces something a sin, our doing it displeases him and damages our relationship with Him. If he declares looking at the colour orange a sin then our looking at the colour orange damages our relationship with him. He is neither obliged to explain or justify himself, indeed challenging his standards or questioning his right to set them are also sins.





JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SEX, SIN and ...HOMOSEXUALITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:43 pm, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
2ndRateMind
Site Supporter
Posts: 1540
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:25 am
Location: Pilgrim on another way
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #55

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:47 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:26 am regurgitated ancient prejudice...
Is that a reference to the scripture?
No, not all scripture, just the bad bits of it.

Best of wishes, 2RM
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

User avatar
bluegreenearth
Guru
Posts: 2039
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
Location: Manassas, VA
Has thanked: 784 times
Been thanked: 540 times

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #56

Post by bluegreenearth »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:13 pm
bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:48 pm...why should an asexual deity care one way or the other about the sexual practices of a few consenting adults ..
WHY SHOULD GOD CARE ABOUT OUR SEXUAL BEHAVIOURS?

God cares about what we do with our bodies because He loves us and he wants us to be happy. Biblically speaking to be as happy as he designed us to be and to live as long as he wants us to live (namely forever) we must live in fill harmony with him and his moral standards. According to scripture, God designed the human body, gave us life and the power of procreation since all three come from him, they are essentially sacred and must only be used in the way he deems fit.
ISAIAH 29:16

How you twist things! Should the potter be regarded the same as the clay? Should what is made say about its maker: “He did not make me”? And does what is formed say about its former: “He shows no understanding”?

bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:20 am... what is fundamental about homosexual relations that is damaging to a relationship with an asexual God.
It's a sin. All sin damages our relationship with God. . From the moment God pronounces something a sin, our doing it displeases him and damages our relationship with Him. If he declares looking at the colour orange a sin then our looking at the colour orange damages our relationship with him. He is neither obliged to explain or justify himself, indeed challenging his standards or questioning his right to set them are also sins.
Those responses were also predicted and refuted in my original post. viewtopic.php?p=1015539#p1015539

User avatar
2ndRateMind
Site Supporter
Posts: 1540
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:25 am
Location: Pilgrim on another way
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #57

Post by 2ndRateMind »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:33 am
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:31 am

Contention 1. God chose evolution by natural and/or sexual selection as His preferred method of creating and sustaining species.

Whether God chose evolution by natural and/or sexual selection is certainly debatable, but in any case what bearing does "sustaining species" have on whether it homosexual practises are sinful?
Presumably, God creates species because he wants them to persist. Stuff conducive to that, as a first approximation to moral truth, is good. Stuff that isn't, is bad.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:33 amSomething might be advantageous for survival or the sustaining of the whole but still condemned by God. Survival at any price has never been a Christian principle. To illustrate murdering my neighbours and stealing their food during times of famine or eating any weak or handicapped children might contribute to group survival but still be morally and spiritually objectionable. Thus the real question, at least for the believer should be, does God voice his approval or disapproval of a given action, belief or attitude.
So, I think you are ignoring JS Mill's harm principle. As a second approximation to moral truth, I should be free to do whatever I want, provided only that it does no harm to my neighbour.
2ndRateMind wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:31 am
Contention 2. Homosexuality would have been bred out of all species long ago if it offered no such selective advantage.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:33 am Emphasis MINE

As for the suggestion that homosexually would have "bred out of all species long ago" if it wasn't part of Gods original purpose, that supposes all that exists does so because it is of divine mandate or at the very least in accord with God's plan.
So, how does a homosexual reproduce, if he or she has only homosexual sex?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:33 amCONCLUSION Given the above we can reasonably conclude that the premise that all that exists does so because was part of his original will is biblically false. Applying this to contention #2, once the premise is removed we are left with the option that rather than being a design mechanism for the benefit of the species, homosexuality (like disease and adamic death) is a malfunction God has permitted to continue.
I think you do not do God sufficient justice in your conclusion. He knows us better than we know ourselves, (had you ever been tested beyond destruction, as I was in the army, you would know this) and that whatever happens is part of His plan.

Best of wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

User avatar
2ndRateMind
Site Supporter
Posts: 1540
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:25 am
Location: Pilgrim on another way
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #58

Post by 2ndRateMind »

2ndRateMind wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:07 am ...I think you do not do God sufficient justice in your conclusion. ...
So this thread seems to have gone a little quiet, despite JehovahsWitness' valiant attempts to defend the indefensible. Can I take it then, that the forum consensus is that intimate 'homosexual relations' are not sinful?

Best wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4311
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 191 times

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #59

Post by Mithrae »

There's plenty of reasons for a lull in posting. Having been persuaded by the other person (or people, when there's a pile-on) is probably the least common of them :lol:

User avatar
2ndRateMind
Site Supporter
Posts: 1540
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:25 am
Location: Pilgrim on another way
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Are homosexual relations sinful?

Post #60

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Mithrae wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:08 pm There's plenty of reasons for a lull in posting. Having been persuaded by the other person (or people, when there's a pile-on) is probably the least common of them :lol:
Granted. 'A man convinced against his will, holds the same opinion still'. I was just trying to stave off boredom, and maybe even somewhat re-stimulate the debate!

Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

Post Reply