God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

No human has yet been born again of the Spirit. All Christians are presently heirs unto salvation.

Yes, Christians have been born again of the Spirit. We are heirs unto salvation for sure, but we have been born again of the SpiritBoth are true.

Why do you say God will be in hell?

Well, hey, you're the one who said God is omnipresent, man. Which is true. You say that, and you say hell is a real place. You can add 2 and 2, can't you? Because I surely can. And He does everything He does for a purpose (for His own glory). So if there's nobody in hell, which is what you asserted before, then why will He be there? See how you mix things up?

You have a habit of wanting to interpret what God really meant to say.

No, I have a habit of pointing out the things you say that directly refute what God has said.

For what possible purpose would a spiritual bodied being desire to also have a physical body? That's utterly ridiculous!

Well, to be able to actually do physical things in the very much physical New Heaven and New Earth, a physical body -- physicality -- is absolutely necessary. What's truly utterly ridiculous is thinking we won't have our physical body present with our spirit in the New Heaven and New Earth. We have this now, and we will then, too. The only difference will be that we are truly glorified and just like Jesus (although not equal to Him, of course).

Why do you laugh at the Words of your God??

I only laugh -- good-natured way, of course -- at your terribly misguided and absurd take on, well, at least some of the words of my God. At least the ones we've talked about (many times) in this exchange.

Like I said, talk to Wootah. Maybe you'll be receptive to his goodwill, because you sure haven't been receptive to mine, but rather, like I said, mean-spirited, unloving, and graceless.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

No human has yet been born again of the Spirit. All Christians are presently heirs unto salvation.

Yes, Christians have been born again of the Spirit. We are heirs unto salvation for sure, but we have been born again of the Spirit. Both are true.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

So you claim that you can move as the wind?
==========================================

The Bible states that Christians are heirs unto everlasting life:

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

If you already have everlasting spiritual life, why would you need to inherit another everlasting life?

Is two times everlasting greater than one times everlasting?

===========================================

For what possible purpose would a spiritual bodied being desire to also have a physical body? That's utterly ridiculous!

Well, to be able to actually do physical things in the very much physical New Heaven and New Earth, a physical body -- physicality -- is absolutely necessary.

Now that's comical! LOL!

So man can do "physical things" God and the angels cannot do?

Then, how did God make the physical earth without the help of any men?

What's truly utterly ridiculous is thinking we won't have our physical body present with our spirit in the New Heaven and New Earth. We have this now, and we will then, too.

Every physical human body is appointed to die.

All we have now is a physical body which will perish.

We shall inherit eternal life -- It is not something we have now:

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundred-fold, and shall inherit eternal life. (Matthew 19:29)

==============================================

Since you believe you've already been born again of the Spirit, you cannot possibly understand the description what occurs to deceased Christians who will be born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming.

This is Paul writing to the Christians at Corinth comparing the buried Christian body to the body Christians will inherit at their resurrection:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

This scripture is not complicated. The Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die.

At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.

This is exactly what the above verses state! Read them again several times if you must to confirm their simple truth.

Or alternately, give me your private interpretation of them.

==========================================

Paul goes on to state that the natural body comes first for Christians and the spiritual body comes last:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

And the answer to that riddle is that once one has a spiritual body, there is no cause to ever need a natural body with the characteristics of hunger, thirst, pain, fear, greed, etc . . . leading to death.

Thus the natural body comes first. Man is given a taste of life, and can choose to accept or reject everlasting life in a spiritual body without any of the negative physical characteristics.

[PinSeeker]

So you claim that you can move as the wind?

LOL!!!! No, because I'm not the Holy Spirit. LOL!!! But I am a pretty fast runner. You know, "run like the wind"? LOL!!!

So man can do "physical things" God and the angels cannot do?

Oh my sweet Lord...

All we have now is a physical body which will perish.

Nope. We have a spirit, and our physical body, too. Yes, the physical body will perish at the first death, but will be resurrected and reunited with the spirit. To think otherwise is very silly.

Since you believe you've already been born again of the Spirit, you cannot possibly understand the description what occurs to deceased Christians who will be born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming.

This is just absurd. That they became Christians before they were deceased means they were born again while they were living. My goodness.

This is Paul writing to the Christians at Corinth comparing the buried Christian body to the body Christians will inherit at their resurrection:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

This scripture is not complicated. The Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die.

Yes, I well know, several times over, your egregiously wrong take on 1 Corinthians 15.

At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state! Read them again several times if you must to confirm their simple truth.

No, it's you that needs to reread (and pray for understanding). Christian's physical bodies are resurrected -- just like Jesus was resurrected; this is what a resurrection is, very physical, for goodness' sake -- and our spirits, which have been present with Jesus since we died the first death -- just like the thief who was crucified on Jesus's right -- are reunited with our resurrected physical bodies.

Or alternately, give me your private interpretation of them.

<chuckles> No "private interpretations"...

Paul goes on to state that the natural body comes first for Christians and the spiritual body comes last.

Actually, it says:

• "But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."

So, myth-one, the physical is not "no more," as in no longer existing, but the spiritual is made alive within the physical. The physical alone was first, and then the spiritual, which is born within the physical (of the Holy Spirit). I mean, this is Christianity 101, for goodness' sake. In both cases, we are still a man, but the difference is that we are no longer of the earth, but of heaven. This is exactly what Paul proceeds to say:

• "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven."

Maybe you begin to understand how silly your take on it is. No, I doubt you do... But it is. Again, talk to Wootah.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

So you claim that you can move as the wind?

LOL!!!! No, because I'm not the Holy Spirit. LOL!!! But I am a pretty fast runner. You know, "run like the wind"? LOL!!!

Christians have been born again of the Spirit.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

You claimed that Christians have already been born again of the Spirit.

And the scriptures state that every one born of the Spirit can move as the wind.

But you are a Christian who can't move as the wind.

Therefore, you are mistaken that Christians have already been born again of the Spirit.

[PinSeeker]

You claimed that Christians have already been born again of the Spirit.

Yes, I know I did. So do Paul and Peter, in Ephesians 1-2 and 1 Peter 1, respectively. Thus, my claim.

And the scriptures state that every one born of the Spirit can move as the wind.

LOL!!! No, the Scriptures -- John 3, to be specific -- say... and actually, Jesus (and God the Father) asserts... that the Holy Spirit comes and goes as the wind. This is a metaphor...

• * metonymy is the substitution of the name of an attribute or adjunct for that of the thing meant, for example "suit" for business executive, or "the track" for horse racing

...which conveys to Nicodemus (and us) the message that the Spirit moves as He Himself chooses and we do not know what He will or will not choose to do, and that He does as God the Father directs Him (the Spirit), according to His (God's) will. And Paul clarifies this for us in Romans 9:16, that:

• "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

But you are a Christian who can't move as the wind.

Well, I can run, but surely not like the wind. I'm pretty slow. LOL!!!

Therefore, you are mistaken that Christians have already been born again of the Spirit.

If you assumptions and premises were not so wildly wrong, you might be able to find your way to at least some semblance of the truth, myth-one. This is the whole problem in a nutshell.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

After the resurrection and the Judgment, we will once again be "flesh/spirit hybrids" --- LOL! -- because we will get our bodies back, and then, yeah, we'll "live happily ever after."

For what possible purpose would a spiritual bodied being desire to also have a physical body? That's utterly ridiculous!

Well, to be able to actually do physical things in the very much physical New Heaven and New Earth, a physical body -- physicality -- is absolutely necessary.

So man can do "physical things" God and the angels cannot do?

Oh my sweet Lord...

=======================================

God is a Spirit, and created the physical earth.

Why do you claim that spiritual bodied beings must absolutely also have physical bodies to enable them to perform physical things?

God seemed to do OK without one.

[myth-one.com]

So, myth-one, the physical is not "no more," as in no longer existing, but the spiritual is made alive within the physical. The physical alone was first, and then the spiritual, which is born within the physical (of the Holy Spirit). I mean, this is Christianity 101, for goodness' sake. In both cases, we are still a man, but the difference is that we are no longer of the earth, but of heaven.

The verses below are from Paul's writing to the Christians at Corinth comparing the buried physical Christian body to the body Christians will inherit at their resurrection:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

The Christian body that is sown or buried is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when Christians die.

At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.

If the physical body were merged with the spiritual body as you suggest, then that being would be:

Both corruptible and incorruptible.

Dishonorable and glorious.

Weak and powerful.

And a natural body and a spiritual body.

Do you see the conflicts there?

Paul did. Thus he was compelled to write that they do not mix.

The natural body comes first and will be followed by the spiritual body for believers.
============================================

Nonbelievers will be resurrected with physical bodies, and face judgment.

===========================================

I mean, this is Christianity 101, for goodness' sake. In both cases, we are still a man, but the difference is that we are no longer of the earth, but of heaven. This is exactly what Paul proceeds to say:

"The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven."

You quote Paul as agreeing with me -- it's simply that "Christianity 101" does not understand Paul.

Paul states man is of the dust. As was the man of dust, so are they who are of the dust.

That is, that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

And as is the man of heaven, so are they who are of heaven.

That is, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here's how Jesus put it:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

They are unique different bodies, requiring separate births!

[Checkpoint]

In the original post that started this thread, I posed four questions.

Here they are, together with my brief answer to each one.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

Perhaps not. But the usual version of what is considered to be "the truth about hell" often produces strong negative reactions. This could well be a sign that what we read or heard may be questionable.

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

Because the common version of hell presents what God plans to do with all those who are not real believers. Thus it is portraying the character of God and an aspect of the good news that has extremely bad news.

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

Because it makes God look like a fiend who puts humans into a future of endless torment; of anger and/or regret that never ceases. They will want to die but not be able to do so.

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

All three.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #407]

Here's how Jesus put it:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)
They are unique different bodies, requiring separate births!

That which is birthed is not just a body, but a person.

Here's how John put it into the present:

John 1:

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God.

[PinSeeker]

Okay, I'm a little bored today, so...

In the original post that started this thread, I posed four questions. Here they are, together with my brief answer to each one.

My comments added...

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

Perhaps not. But the usual version of what is considered to be "the truth about hell" often produces strong negative reactions. This could well be a sign that what we read or heard may be questionable.

I don't think I'd term this an "answer," really... All I would say -- and others even with different viewpoints would agree -- is that what can be known about hell is clearly shown in Scripture.

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

Because the common version of hell presents what God plans to do with all those who are not real believers. Thus it is portraying the character of God and an aspect of the good news that has extremely bad news.

I'd call the news that the God of all grace will remove sin and suffering (sorrow and sighing, as Isaiah puts it in chapter 35 of his prophecy) and will welcome all who repent and believe into eternal life and make them co-heirs of His kingdom with Christ -- and the eligibility of all to receive all these things despite abject unworthiness -- infinitely good news. In the negative sense, it is extremely good news that believers will not be subjected to God's wrath and judgment. Yes, this is the Gospel.

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

Because it makes God look like a fiend who puts humans into a future of endless torment; of anger and/or regret that never ceases. They will want to die but not be able to do so.

Hm. Well, to some, yes, it makes Him "look like a fiend," I agree, but this is mere opinion, and really prideful resentment and a weak stab at self-justification. What makes Him "look like a fiend" to some gives others quite the opposite reaction; it accentuates His holiness, His splendor, and his majesty. This is what the Word does, actually, it divides, just as Jesus said it does.

At any rate, God's uncompromising justice is certainly a fearful thing. That's true -- or should be, anyway -- for people on both sides of the fence. But God's perfect justice is an aspect of His love, actually. And like Paul says in Romans 1, unbelievers will have no excuse. They are the ones who -- even though God will have made plain to them what can be known about Him because He will have shown it to them (they do in fact know God) -- will have chosen not to honor Him as God or give thanks to Him. They will have willingly exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator. It's actually good news, Checkpoint, that He will give to all -- all -- exactly as they have chosen.

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

All three.

Ah. Yes, but not all three always apply; it depends on who you're referring to, I think.

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.