Should unbelievers be punished? Why?

[unknown soldier]

Why should unbelievers be punished for not believing what Christians claim? In what way is skepticism regarding the claims of Christ morally wrong?

[DavidLeon]

If someone shows up to your house and says there's a horrible storm coming but if you want and you behave well, you can come with them and be saved from the storm and you say, nah. When the storm takes you out is that the person who invited you punishing you? No. That's you getting what you wanted, which wasn't what you thought it was.

Or, you listen to the person and decide to go with him. No storm comes and while you are gone his accomplices break into your home and rob you blind. Stories are just that, stories.

The person inviting you is not the one punishing you. The storm is a natural event and has not taken you out purposefully. God on the other hand is the perpetrator of the consequences of your failure to believe. To say that people are getting what they wanted is really an insult. If God wants everyone to believe in him then, being omnipotent, he can make that happen easily. He should be communicating with everyone directly rather than using other human beings who are really none the wiser themselves and relying on a poorly contrived collection of ancient myths and legends.

Argy Lacedom? He used to post on the SAB forum.

What do you think your reaction would be if you found out too late that you were wrong? Would you think it was your own fault or would you curse God? I mean, if you're watching thousands of people who've made it you would probably think why not me? Or if you were surprised to discover that you had made it would you look for the complaint department to tell God a thing or two about how he should have done things?

[Tcg]

A non-theist can ask if some action is against his cultural norms or if it is something that he would personally dislike. However asking if something is morally right or wrong, beyond personal opinion, demands belief in a God of some kind.

This doesn't add up. If a God were to exist and they had a personal opinion of some kind, it would just be one more amongst the many. Any one can have a personal opinion, claiming it is God's adds nothing to the weight or quality of the opinion.


Tcg

[bjs1]

A non-theist can ask if some action is against his cultural norms or if it is something that he would personally dislike. However asking if something is morally right or wrong, beyond personal opinion, demands belief in a God of some kind.

This doesn't add up. If a God were to exist and they had a personal opinion of some kind, it would just be one more amongst the many. Any one can have a personal opinion, claiming it is God's adds nothing to the weight or quality of the opinion.

It does not make sense to reduce a Creator's take on virtue to an opinion. It would be like saying that a composer has only an opinion about which note should come next in a symphony.

[brunumb]

Argy Lacedom? He used to post on the SAB forum.

Huh? If you think that is me, it's not. I have only ever been brunumb and then only posted on the now defunct Amazon forums. When it folded I joined Atheist Discussions. OK?

What do you think your reaction would be if you found out too late that you were wrong? Would you think it was your own fault or would you curse God?

I think I would be entitled. He knew why I didn't believe. Relying on spokespeople who were clearly indoctrinated into one particular religious sect to deliver his message is far beneath any intelligent deity. The fault lies with him, not me. Yelling "Fire!" in a theatre when there is no fire is a criminal act. Before you do it there should be irrefutable signs of a fire. With Christianity, all we have is an ancient book of myths and legends. People die and that is the end. No amount of wishful thinking can change that.

I mean, if you're watching thousands of people who've made it you would probably think why not me? Or if you were surprised to discover that you had made it would you look for the complaint department to tell God a thing or two about how he should have done things?

Religious beliefs are largely determined by geography, not reasoning or logic or interpretations of allegedly holy texts. They can't all be right but that can all be wrong. What if you find that your choice was the wrong one?

[brunumb]

It does not make sense to reduce a Creator's take on virtue to an opinion. It would be like saying that a composer has only an opinion about which note should come next in a symphony.

We don't have God's opinion on anything. We only have claims made by human beings that gave been attributed as God's opinion. In that sense those opinions are worthless.

[Clownboat]

What do you think your reaction would be if you found out too late that you were wrong?

This one worked well on many children!
If I'm wrong, then you will lose out on nothing come death, but if I'm right, you will go to hell if you do not heed my words, I mean the words of a god that I'm claiming to use.

Not exactly how we would say it, but pretty close.

So now my reaction to a person like DavidLeon would be, "how about we leave the scare tactics to the terrorists, a god could do better".

Would you think it was your own fault or would you curse God?

That would depend. Does this all powerful and all knowing god know what it would take for me to know that he is real and not just a god concept like the others? If it wants me to know him, and it knows what it can do so I do know him, yet chooses to not let me know him, then I could see the fault being with the god I suppose.

Or if you were surprised to discover that you had made it would you look for the complaint department to tell God a thing or two about how he should have done things?

This god already knows what it would take for me to know that it is real. What good would going to a complaint department do as it should already know that it failed to identify itself as a real god concept compared to all the false god concepts that are available.

[DavidLeon]

Huh? If you think that is me, it's not. I have only ever been brunumb and then only posted on the now defunct Amazon forums. When it folded I joined Atheist Discussions. OK?

And some classical music forums. Atheist Discussions. If someone were to ask me "Dave, what makes you think militant atheists are horrible people?" I would give them a link to Atheist Discussions. Dregs of society. Loathsome creatures.

What do you think your reaction would be if you found out too late that you were wrong? Would you think it was your own fault or would you curse God?

I think I would be entitled.

You got that right. Entitlement of Biblical proportions, as they say. Militant atheists tend to think that if God does exist, then they are not only entitled to the created life they were given but an explanation of why the miraculous creation they were given - the universe and this amazing planet - is so messed up when it was the humans themselves that messed it up. Plus they arrogantly demand an omniscient assessment of what their creator's purpose for mankind is because their skeptical, scientific based, independent, critical thinking minds couldn't figure out what the uneducated believers had figured out thousands of years ago.

He knew why I didn't believe. Relying on spokespeople who were clearly indoctrinated into one particular religious sect to deliver his message is far beneath any intelligent deity.

Is this in the Atheist's Handbook For Intelligent Deities? What were you expecting? College professors who wear fuzzy sweaters and find everything terribly fascinating?

The fault lies with him, not me. Yelling "Fire!" in a theatre when there is no fire is a criminal act. Before you do it there should be irrefutable signs of a fire.

Have you read the book of Revelation? There is a fire and the signs are all around you. In just the last 20 years things that have happened that indicate the end of this system that I couldn't imagine happening when I first became a believer astound me.

With Christianity, all we have is an ancient book of myths and legends. People die and that is the end. No amount of wishful thinking can change that.

No. It can't.

Religious beliefs are largely determined by geography, not reasoning or logic or interpretations of allegedly holy texts. They can't all be right but that can all be wrong.

Religions aren't determined by interpretations of allegedly holy texts? Where do you come up with this stuff? Religions can't all be right? Of course they can. I often wonder if the scientific atheism took over the world would it be ultra conformist? It can't all be peanut butter jelly time for everyone ... let them eat Vegemite! There are aspects of most religions that are "right." Except for maybe Hinduism. We could get rid of that. Even Scientology, as crazy as it is, makes a sort of pseudo attempt at helping people in the guise of a tyrannical celestial cash cow sort of way. Okay. We should probably get rid of that as well, but there's only one religion which promises everlasting life in paradise earth with our creator, sovereign Lord Jehovah leading us as he should be. If people would rather not then let them.

What if you find that your choice was the wrong one?

Well, if my choice is the wrong one I won't ever know about it beyond this life because that won't exist, but if I found out it was the wrong one in this life ... I used to think that I would be doing what I'm doing now but instead of explaining why it is the truth I would be explaining why it isn't, but I'm older now and I think I would just live out the rest of my life and let everyone figure it out themselves.

Websites and forums don't change anything. I do this because I enjoy it, not because I think I'm enlightening anyone or anyone would be interested in me doing that. I think some people think that way. They get lost in an illusory purpose.

[Clownboat]

Huh? If you think that is me, it's not. I have only ever been brunumb and then only posted on the now defunct Amazon forums. When it folded I joined Atheist Discussions. OK?

And some classical music forums. Atheist Discussions. If someone were to ask me "Dave, what makes you think militant atheists are horrible people?" I would give them a link to Atheist Discussions. Dregs of society. Loathsome creatures.

And here is some irony, without the divisions that religions create, you would see atheists for what they are, just normal humans that don't find claims about god concepts to be credible.
When they are the enemy (Us vs Them), or when we indoctrinate our children in to believing such a thing, the division is created. Some humans are dregs of society, some are atheists and some are religious. My no longer having a religious perspective allows me to acknowledge this as I no longer have a dog in the fight.

Not finding claims to be believable is something we all do each and every day. Religious claims are the problem, not those that find them lacking.

[bjs1]

It does not make sense to reduce a Creator's take on virtue to an opinion. It would be like saying that a composer has only an opinion about which note should come next in a symphony.

We don't have God's opinion on anything. We only have claims made by human beings that gave been attributed as God's opinion. In that sense those opinions are worthless.

At no point in this thread have I said that we have God’s opinion on anything.

Instead, I pointed out that the unknown soldier’s question about what “should” be are built on objective morality, which requires belief in a God of some kind. I have not attempted to make claims about God’s opinion. I have pointed out that only someone who believes in God can meaningfully ask the questions of this thread.

[DavidLeon]

What do you think your reaction would be if you found out too late that you were wrong?

This one worked well on many children!
If I'm wrong, then you will lose out on nothing come death, but if I'm right, you will go to hell if you do not heed my words, I mean the words of a god that I'm claiming to use.

Except for that hell is the grave so it really isn't much different than anything a godless heathen would tell their children. Except for the resurrection.

Not exactly how we would say it, but pretty close.

Exactly. But y'all ruffled up ain't ya?!

So now my reaction to a person like DavidLeon would be, "how about we leave the scare tactics to the terrorists, a god could do better".

Terrorists! Hmph. That's old school government mass media propaganda bogeyman. There's nothing scary about death. Children learn about it pretty early on and all of our adorable attempts to protect them from reality are as futile as they look. If you want to stop messing up your kids stop telling them about Santa and the Easter Bunny. Christmas and Easter.

Would you think it was your own fault or would you curse God?

That would depend. Does this all powerful and all knowing god know what it would take for me to know that he is real and not just a god concept like the others?

The God I'm talking about, the one that isn't connected to any nonsensical religious doctrines of omniscience or omnipotence etc. does know what it would take for you to know that he is real and he also knows what it would take for you to pretend you don't. He's given you everything you need. The two b's. A brain and a Bible. Hallelujah!! Can I get an amen, brother Clown boat!

If it wants me to know him, and it knows what it can do so I do know him, yet chooses to not let me know him, then I could see the fault being with the god I suppose.

Well, what is it you want to know, buddy? Hmmm? You just tell me and I can point you in the right direction. Unless ... Unless you don't really want to know. Unless he's just a convenient scapegoat. Clownboat's Scapegoat?

Or if you were surprised to discover that you had made it would you look for the complaint department to tell God a thing or two about how he should have done things?

This god already knows what it would take for me to know that it is real. What good would going to a complaint department do as it should already know that it failed to identify itself as a real god concept compared to all the false god concepts that are available.

Nice spin. Relieves hostility ironically?