God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

Like I said, there is nothing new to respond to here.

Agreed.

Everything you just posted was already said (by you)...

Right, by me, but quoting God and His Word.

I simply posted a summary, but see no reason to go round and round on the exact same thread, with the exact same content.

Right. Same here.

I am content to let those posts stand as they are. Anyone can read through them if they wish.

Right on.

Grace and peace to you.

[koko]

So if what Jesus said in the Bible is true, where do you think the 'sin' or defects in your bodies that you and my step-mother are having to deal with came from?
The answer is found in Romans 5:12 "through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."
The 'sin' or defect started with Adam. He passed this on to his children and so on and so on. So that today we are still dealing with the affects of his decision to rebel against the One that gives life.

That's the key = "if what Jesus said is true ..."


I realize you mean well but I say 'no thanks'. After all, it says somewhere in Matt "blessed are those who weap and mourn". If that's true then let god spread the wealth and give it to someone else rather than to me all the time. If you were me that's what you would say.

[koko]

Yes, I talked with you about this before. I too have suffered from some physical shortcomings. Probably not quite like you, but still, I understand what you are talking about. But can't God be blessing us despite our physical circumstance, whatever it may be? I would say yes.


That's too bad (both that you've stopped seeking the Lord and have been suffering). It may seem useless at times, and I understand how that can seem to be the case, but it most assuredly is not.


No, it's not "fact" at all. Life is hard in one way or another... or a thousand... God causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45). But God has a purpose in everything, and He is with us even in the midst of trouble and suffering, working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:29), and one day, all sorrow and sighing will flee away (Isaiah 35:10), and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4).

Grace and peace to you, koko.

As with tim, I know you mean well. But put yourself in my position and I guarantee your outlook would not be quite as rosy.

Thanks to you both for your kind wishes.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #414]

Pinseeker wrote]:

the Bible -- God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) -- does not (do not) teach annihilation. Eternal life or God's wrath and fury -- discipline and judgment -- for eternity... these are the two alternatives. The way Jesus concludes the parable of the great final Judgment in Matthew 25:46 should be more than enough to convince anyone. Concerning those on His proverbial left, who remain under the curse of sin and death, he says, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment -- not eternal nonexistence -- is the opposite of eternal life. And God executes that punishment from a position of and in perfect love, holiness, and glory.

The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal death, the cessation of human life, not its eternal self-existence.

The Matthew 25 parable states these two alternatives in two different ways. The one you omitted clarifies and expands on the brief one you included.

46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world'.

41 Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'.

"Eternal punishment" is the penal decision made by the judge. It is final and will never be changed or reversed.

It will be executed by the ones convicted departing "into the eternal fire prepared".

This "eternal fire", this "punishment", is clearly spoken of in the Bible. Its execution is decisive and lasting.

2 Peer 2:

6 if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the Day of Judgment.

Jude:
6 for judgment on that great day.
7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who undergo the punishment of eternal fire

.

May the Lord give you His peace, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

...put yourself in my position and I guarantee your outlook would not be quite as rosy.

But that's my point; your position is not so different than mine. Or really, any man's. Life is hard. We all have... stuff... to deal with, whether physical or otherwise. One day -- but not in this life -- that will no longer be the case.

Too, I understand not being able to take your own focus off of yourself -- to get out of yourself -- as I am guilty of that, too. But that's a big part of the problem; it's the human condition, actually.

At any rate, my heart goes out to you.

Thanks to you both for your kind wishes.

You're most welcome. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal death...

This much I agree with wholeheartedly, with the exception of the very last part, which is not incorrect but incomplete... or not parallel. The opposite of one thing that is spiritual (I agree, life) cannot be another thing that is physical. It may be inadvertent, but you're comparing apples and oranges, as it were. The true opposite "eternal (spiritual) life is eternal (spiritual) death. This permanent condition of death, resulting from the second death, is not physical in nature but spiritual.

...not its eternal self-existence.

"Self-existence"??? LOL! Well that would mean complete autonomy, and no one has ever claimed anything even approaching that... certainly not me, anyway.

At any rate, what God has brought into existence, He will not "wipe from existence," as it is all very good, as He pronounces all of His creation in Genesis 1. Men do not have power over God to make something bad that He made good -- which I know you are not claiming, but is still the effect of your assertions. Men have, however, corrupted what God made very good -- because of the sinful nature he inherited from Adam as a result of Adam's original sin. But God promises to make all things new, and He will, as all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ. This is the Gospel. Absolutely nowhere in Scripture does God ever say he will wipe from existence anything -- except the tears from the eyes of His Elect and all death, mourning, and crying, and pain (Revelation 21).

The Matthew 25 parable states these two alternatives in two different ways. The one you omitted clarifies and expands on the brief one you included.

No, it doesn't, Checkpoint. Jesus very clearly presents the two alternatives as wholly distinct and mutually exclusive. Surely, you will agree with this. But you are still adding something to what Jesus says in Matthew 25, something that He neither says nor implies, even if inadvertently.

"Eternal punishment" is the penal decision made by the judge. It is final and will never be changed or reversed. It will be executed by the ones convicted departing "into the eternal fire prepared". This "eternal fire", this "punishment", is clearly spoken of in the Bible. Its execution is decisive and lasting.

Absolutely.

2 Peer 2: 6 if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the Day of Judgment.

Jude: 6 for judgment on that great day. 7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who undergo the punishment of eternal fire.

Sure. The fire is indicative and symbolic of punishment and judgment and the permanence and everlasting nature of those things. The judgment of the inhabitants -- people -- or Sodom and Gomorrah is most assuredly a type -- divine foreshadowing -- of God's final Judgment, the results of which will be permanent and everlasting... eternal. But again, you're likening what is spiritual to what is physical, which neither Peter nor Jude do.

Too, you may or may not know this, but smoke was still rising from the site of Sodom and Gomorrah in the first century A.D., and this was taken by the original readers of Jude's letter -- and thus should be taken by us -- as a physical symbol of eternal divine judgment and its permanence. And this is where the unrepentant are sent -- to a place where they will experience this for eternity.

May the Lord give you His peace, Pinseeker.

You also, Checkpoint. Same to you and more of it! Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #426]

test reply

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #426]

Checkpoint wrote:(Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:15 pm)

The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal death...

This much I agree with wholeheartedly,

So good to know that.

Shall we just leave it there, then?

Nah, not really. I think we are both tigers for punishment, if you know what I mean!

We both mean well.

Blessings Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

The opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal death...

This much I agree with wholeheartedly,

So good to know that.

Well, again, I only agreed with the very beginning of your post, which was crystal clear. But now you're deliberately and egregiously misrepresenting my position, trying to make it much different than what it was/is. Which makes your blessings to me ring hollow, to be perfectly honest. Wow. But... well... I can't say I didn't expect that, even from you.

At any rate, what I said in response to what you quoted yourself as saying here was: "This much I agree with wholeheartedly, with the exception of the very last part, which is not incorrect but incomplete... or not parallel. The opposite of one thing that is spiritual (I agree, life) cannot be another thing that is physical. It may be inadvertent, but you're comparing apples and oranges, as it were. The true opposite "eternal (spiritual) life is eternal (spiritual) death. This permanent condition of death, resulting from the second death, is not physical in nature but spiritual."

So, to paraphrase myself, the opposite of eternal life is the absence of eternal (spiritual) life, which is eternal (spiritual) death... not physical non-existence. I disagree with you -- wholeheartedly -- that eternal punishment, the result of the second death, is synonymous with physical non-existence, and the reason is because God clearly and plainly says it's not.

Shall we just leave it there, then?

Sure thing.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

So if what Jesus said in the Bible is true, where do you think the 'sin' or defects in your bodies that you and my step-mother are having to deal with came from?
The answer is found in Romans 5:12 "through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."
The 'sin' or defect started with Adam. He passed this on to his children and so on and so on. So that today we are still dealing with the affects of his decision to rebel against the One that gives life.

That's the key = "if what Jesus said is true ..."


I realize you mean well but I say 'no thanks'. After all, it says somewhere in Matt "blessed are those who weap and mourn". If that's true then let god spread the wealth and give it to someone else rather than to me all the time. If you were me that's what you would say.

If what Jesus says or the entire Bible isn't true then there is nothing but death that awaits all mankind, for those currently healthy or sick. Is that what you believe?

About the scripture you quoted from Matthew chapter 5. To finish your quote of Matthew 5:4, "Happy are those who mourn, since they will be comforted." Those who mourn are not mourning for what is happening to them. It's those that mourn for the spiritual condition of the world. Note that the beginning of the chapter says, "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need". If a person is not aware of their spiritual need or don't think that their spirituality needs to be addressed then happiness can be elusive even if they have healthy bodies.

While I do not suffer as much as other people in this world, I do understand that if I continue to live with the defects in my body, in a few years I will grow old and die unless some sort of disease or accident doesn't get to me first. All of mankind is dying right now. Yet that is not the end of the story as many think. Revelation 21:4,5 says what is coming, "And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." and the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new.""

You can take that passage as a personal message not from me to you, yet from Jehovah to you as it was written for people that suffer and to give hope to all mankind that death is going to a thing of the past. Revelation 21:5 finishes saying, "Also he says: "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Is it not interesting that Jehovah wants us to know that He will fulfill this prophecy because He is faithful to us? We always hear of how we should be faithful to God but how many times have you heard that God is going to be faithful to us?

You said that if I were you, I'd think like you. I can't say for sure if I would or wouldn't as I don't know what you're going through. However, knowing myself I know one thought that would cross my mind. 'What would I lose by attempting to care for my spiritual needs seeing that I can do little or nothing for my physical needs.' If Revelation 21:4 is not fulfilled in my life time then death is certain. Yet this doesn't scare me. Nor do I mourn because of my impending death Why? Because I have decided to give attention to my spiritual needs.