The Immoral God

[Miles]

.


I only say "immoral" because I don't feel god's actions as described below are moral.


Question 1: is owning other human beings as property moral?
Question 2: is accepting a burnt human offering to oneself moral?

God says "Yes."

1) Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.


2) Judges 11:30-32:
30 Jephthah made this vow to the Lord: “If you in fact hand over the Ammonites to me, 31 whoever comes out the doors of my house to greet me when I return safely from the Ammonites will belong to the Lord, and I will offer that person as a burnt offering.”
32 Jephthah crossed over to the Ammonites to fight against them, and the Lord handed them over to him. [God accepts and keeps his part of the bargain]

and

Judges 11: 34-39
34 When Jephthah went to his home in Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with tambourines and dancing! She was his only child; he had no other son or daughter besides her. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, “No! Not my daughter! You have devastated me! You have brought great misery on me.[a] I have given my word to the Lord and cannot take it back.”
36 Then she said to him, “My father, you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me as you have said, for the Lord brought vengeance on your enemies, the Ammonites.” 37 She also said to her father, “Let me do this one thing: Let me wander two months through the mountains with my friends and mourn my virginity.”
38 “Go,” he said. And he sent her away two months. So she left with her friends and mourned her virginity as she wandered through the mountains. 39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, and he kept the vow he had made about her. . . . . [Jephthah keeps his part of the bargain ]

Now,

if you don't feel I've properly understood either of these pieces of scripture please clue me in.
if you do feel I've properly understood both of these pieces of scripture do you feel the god of Abraham is still moral or not? If so, why?



.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID THE MOSAIC LAW AUTHORIZE THE KILLING OF HUMANS IN SACRIFICE TO GOD?

DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12

"You must not learn to do according to the detestable things of the nations. There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire...For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

JW







RELATED POSTS

Did the Mosaic law authorize human sacrifice? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1020695#p1020695

Can a "Burnt Offering" be literal or methaphoric
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p900493

Did God tell Abraham to MURDER his own sin?
viewtopic.php?p=987077#p987077

Did God have Jesus murdered?
viewtopic.php?p=993399#p993399

[Miles]

DID THE MOSAIC LAW AUTHORIZE THE KILLING OF HUMANS IN SACRIFICE TO GOD?

DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12

"You must not learn to do according to the detestable things of the nations. There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire...For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

Guess it's against mosaic law only if you don't have an A-Okay from god. Get an okay from god and go ahead and flick that Bic. Of course the law only applies when you "come into the land which the Lord your God gives you." Outside of that, go ahead and light your fire.

.

[Difflugia]

DID THE MOSAIC LAW AUTHORIZE THE KILLING OF HUMANS IN SACRIFICE TO GOD?

DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12

You'll note that Yahweh never outright prohibits "KILLING OF HUMANS IN SACRIFICE TO GOD," but only the specific form of human sacrifice called "passing through the fire."

2 Kings 23:10 implies that causing one's children to "pass through the fire" was a specific form of sacrifice for Molech. It seems that Yahweh's problem wasn't that people were sacrificed per se, but that they were sacrificed to a rival.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID THE MOSAIC LAW AUTHORIZE THE KILLING OF HUMANS IN SACRIFICE TO GOD?

DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12

You'll note that Yahweh never outright prohibits "KILLING OF HUMANS IN SACRIFICE TO GOD," but only the specific form of human sacrifice called "passing through the fire."

2 Kings 23:10 implies that causing one's children to "pass through the fire" was a specific form of sacrifice for Molech. It seems that Yahweh's problem wasn't that people were sacrificed per se, but that they were sacrificed to a rival.

So are you suggesting that there were legitimate human sacrifices (that God DID desire*) as long as it was done in YHWH /Jehovahs name?

* desire ie came up in YHWH's heart




JW

JEREMIAH 7:31

They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’

[1213]

...Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you….

...if you do feel I've properly understood both of these pieces of scripture do you feel the god of Abraham is still moral or not? If so, why?

If other nations sell own people, I think it is good to buy them from that evil nation.

[Difflugia]

So are you suggesting that there were legitimate human sacrifices (that God DID desire*) as long as it was done in YHWH /Jehovahs name?

* desire ie came up in YHWH's heart

JEREMIAH 7:31

They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’

I wasn't suggesting that, but only because I was responding to the argument you actually made. I will, however, now make that suggestion in light of your shifted goalpost. Even if you now want to move from a prohibition to an explicit command, your argument still fails biblically. The most explicit command of this is Leviticus 27:28-29:

Notwithstanding, no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto Jehovah of all that he has, whether of man or beast, or of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto Jehovah. No one devoted, that shall be devoted from among men, shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

Though some books of the Bible appear to date to a later period when human beings were no longer "devoted to Yahweh," even then, it's clear that "devoted" (cherem) is synonymous with "sacrificed." Numbers 18:14, for example assigns everything cherem to the Levites. I assume that God wasn't implying that the Levites were allowed to be cannibals and this verse was written during a period when human beings were no longer cherem, but by giving everything cherem to the Levites, Numbers makes clear that things that are cherem are (and always have been) things that are given to God.

This becomes important when reading Joshua 6. This chapter describes the destruction of Jericho during the earlier period of Israel's wars of conquest and annihilation and refers to livestock, precious metals, and prisoners of war as all being cherem. The physical fates for living and nonliving things are different, but the reason is the same: each cherem thing becomes a holy offering to Yahweh. Gold and silver go into Yahweh's treasury, but living things are to be slaughtered in Yahweh's Holy Name by having their literal throats cut. Joshua 6:21 reads:

And they devoted (wayacharimu, the wayyiqtol conjugation of cherem) all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword.

It's not like this happened without Yahweh's knowledge or even expectation because He actively policed the Israelites to make sure He got every shekel of gold, morsel of oxflesh, and dying gasp of a child that He had coming to Him. Joshua 7 says that one Israelite, Achan, kept a cherem coat and a bit of cherem cash for himself. Yahweh let the rest of the Israelites know what happened by having some foreigners come and randomly kill a few dozen of them. Once they were paying attention, He had them make an example of Achan by stoning his entire family to death and then setting fire to his tent, his donkeys, and the gold he stole.

[Difflugia]

If other nations sell own people, I think it is good to buy them from that evil nation.

And then keep them as your own slaves? Did you maybe not think this particular bit of apologetics all the way through? To be sure, being a kinder human trafficker than the neighbors is something, but it's still not much.

[Miles]

...Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you….

...if you do feel I've properly understood both of these pieces of scripture do you feel the god of Abraham is still moral or not? If so, why?

If other nations sell own people, I think it is good to buy them from that evil nation.

The verse doesn't say a thing about the nation having to be evil before you have a right to buy any of its people.

And, if god gives a man permission to sell a daughter into slavery . . .

Exodus 21:7-8
7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.

. . .how bad could god think slavery is?


.

[JehovahsWitness]

... Numbers makes clear that things that are cherem are (and always have been) things that are given to God.

GIVING / DEVOTING THINGS TO GOD



The biblical notion of devotion [Hebrew "cheram"] is basically something "set apart " for God (made holy). Were all things set apart or given to God killed? No. A devoted thing could be kept for (kept alive for) sacred use. Notice The following definition of "charam"

“[cheram] thing or person devoted (to destruction or sacred use a[nd] therefore secluded from profane use),” and the causative form of the verb charam as “banish (by banning . . . seclude from society a[nd] life, devote to destruction).” - Koehler, L. and Baumgartner, Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, p. 334

SACRIFICING DEVOTED THINGS

The biblical notion of a sacrifice is offering something or someone to God; sacrifice isn't synonymous with death. Hannah for example vowed to "give [her child] to Jehovah all the days of his life"(1 Sam 1:11), The Nethinim (literally “Given Ones”) were dedicated to temple service, and an entire tribe, the Levites where "given to Jehovah"to redeem the lives of the first born males in the nation (Num 18:6 compare Num 3:12b). Clearly then one must distinguish between a sacrifice and a blood sacrifice.


BLOOD SACRIFICES

The Hebrew religious system also however legislated for the Israelites to symbolically give God that which was his by offering blood sacrifices. This meant that certain animals (or its monetary value, ie its redemption price) was offered at the temple via the High Priest. The animal was indeed kill and it's blood poured out at the alter. What about humans? Note, what NUMBERS Chapter 18 verses 15-20 states regarding the firstborns who were to be offered at the temple

NUMBERS 18:15-20

Every firstborn of all living things, which they will present to Jehovah, whether man or animal, should become yours . However, you should without fail redeem the firstborn of mankind, and the firstborn of the unclean animals you should redeem.+ 16 You should redeem it with the redemption price when it is a month old and up, by the estimated value of five silver shekels,*+ according to the standard shekel of the holy place.* It is 20 geʹrahs.* 17 Only the firstborn bull or firstborn male lamb or firstborn goat you should not redeem.+ They are something holy. You should sprinkle their blood on the altar...

So only certain animals were to be offered as blood sacrifices at the temple, THE LIVES OF ALL HUMAN FIRSTBORNS WERE TO BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY* and the money offered as a "sacrifice" to at the temple in its place. There was thus no provision under the law to kill a human as a religious sacrifice.


DEVOTED TO DESTRUCTION / DIVINE BANS

While the bible speaks of animals, things (or people) "devoted" for religious sacrifice as part of acceptable worship, by far the majority of occurrences of "charem" involve secluding or devoting something with a view of destroying it in keeping with divine prohibitions. Note how the word is used in the following passage...

EXODUS 22:20

“One who sacrifices to any gods but Jehovah alone is to be devoted to destruction ”
Various other translators read "utterly destroyed", "put to death" or "set part for destuction".
https://biblehub.com/exodus/22-20.htm

DEUTERONOMY 7:25, 26

“You must not bring a detestable thing [image] into your house and actually become a thing devoted to destruction [cherem] like it. You should thoroughly loathe it and absolutely detest it, because it is something devoted to destruction.”​
Various other translators read "banned", "accursed" or "set part for destuction".
https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/7-26.htm

Things devoted for destruction (banned) were not redeemable (ie unlike a "human sacrifice" under the temple system, money could not be exchanged for the life of anyone or anything set to be destroyed for violating divine prohibition).

CONCLUSION It is wrong to conclude that all things devoted to God were killed either in punishment or as blood sacrifices. The Hebrew term simply denotes setting something apart for it to be to submitted to the Divine will. For humans that were judged guilty of sin, said divine will was they be put to death (executed). Execution for violating a divine prohibition is not to be confused with acceptable blood sacrifices offered as part of temple worship. There was no provision under the Mosaic temple law for human blood sacrifices.

JW

For more, information please go to posts related to ...

SIN, BLOOD SACRIFICE and ...RANSOM