The Immoral God

[Miles]

.


I only say "immoral" because I don't feel god's actions as described below are moral.


Question 1: is owning other human beings as property moral?
Question 2: is accepting a burnt human offering to oneself moral?

God says "Yes."

1) Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.


2) Judges 11:30-32:
30 Jephthah made this vow to the Lord: “If you in fact hand over the Ammonites to me, 31 whoever comes out the doors of my house to greet me when I return safely from the Ammonites will belong to the Lord, and I will offer that person as a burnt offering.”
32 Jephthah crossed over to the Ammonites to fight against them, and the Lord handed them over to him. [God accepts and keeps his part of the bargain]

and

Judges 11: 34-39
34 When Jephthah went to his home in Mizpah, there was his daughter, coming out to meet him with tambourines and dancing! She was his only child; he had no other son or daughter besides her. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, “No! Not my daughter! You have devastated me! You have brought great misery on me.[a] I have given my word to the Lord and cannot take it back.”
36 Then she said to him, “My father, you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me as you have said, for the Lord brought vengeance on your enemies, the Ammonites.” 37 She also said to her father, “Let me do this one thing: Let me wander two months through the mountains with my friends and mourn my virginity.”
38 “Go,” he said. And he sent her away two months. So she left with her friends and mourned her virginity as she wandered through the mountains. 39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, and he kept the vow he had made about her. . . . . [Jephthah keeps his part of the bargain ]

Now,

if you don't feel I've properly understood either of these pieces of scripture please clue me in.
if you do feel I've properly understood both of these pieces of scripture do you feel the god of Abraham is still moral or not? If so, why?



.

[theophile]

Sorry, but your attempts to justify the Bible by pretending not to know what's going on is too much to bother with.

Have a good day

Clearly you have nothing of substance to say on the matter other than what you add to the text [in parentheses] to try and make your points. Why post if you don't want to discuss?...

[Goose]

.


I only say "immoral" because I don't feel god's actions as described below are moral.

That’s not much of a moral argument but your feelings are noted.

Which is why I didn't say it was an argument.

One wonders why you said it then when under naturalistic evolution a valid, if not sound, argument can be made that it is moral. Do you not hold to naturalistic evolution?

Question 1: is owning other human beings as property moral?

It’s just as easy to make the argument it is moral given the assumption of naturalistic evolution.

• 1. Animal ownership is moral.
  2. Humans are animals.
  3. Therefore, human ownership is moral.

Or, as a Christian, to cut to the chase:
...........1. Human ownership is moral

But how did you get to that conclusion? Go ahead and give me the argument.

[1213]

...The verse doesn't say a thing about the nation having to be evil before you have a right to buy any of its people.

Ok, I thought it would be obvious. But apparently you don’t think that nation that sells people is evil.

And, if god gives a man permission to sell a daughter into slavery . . .

Exodus 21:7-8
7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.

I don’t think that is permission. It only tells, if man of other nation sells… …but it was forbidden for Jews to sell own people:

Anyone who kidnaps someone and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 21:16

'If your brother has grown poor among you, and sells himself to you; you shall not make him to serve as a slave… … They shall not be sold as slaves.
Lev. 25:39-42

So, by what I know, Jews were not allowed to sell, but they were allowed to buy, which I think is ok, if they obey all the rules that God gave.

But anyway, I think no one should be a slave. All who must pay taxes, are slaves, and I think it should end.

Don't become bondservants [slaves] of men.
1 Cor. 7:23

[Miles]

...The verse doesn't say a thing about the nation having to be evil before you have a right to buy any of its people.

Ok, I thought it would be obvious. But apparently you don’t think that nation that sells people is evil.

No I don't. People are evil, not nations. Just because Donald Trump is dumb beyond belief doesn't mean the United States of America is dumb beyond belief.

And, if god gives a man permission to sell a daughter into slavery . . .

Exodus 21:7-8
7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.

I don’t think that is permission. It only tells, if man of other nation sells… …but it was forbidden for Jews to sell own people:

Doesn't say one thing about men of other nations selling their daughters into slavery. The comment is addressed to the Israelites.

Exodus 21:1, 7
1Then God said to Moses, "These are the other laws that you will give to the people:"

2

3

4

5

6

7 "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Guess who "the people are." And you have only one guess.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

7 "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Are you suggesting there is something wrong or immoral in the above statement, if so what? If not, why is it in your "list"?

Clarification appreciated,




JW

[brunumb]

All of these horrible things - slavery, human sacrifice, etc. - must be read in the context of a fallen world, as symptoms of a world that has departed from the path that God intended, and as having no part in either the original design or end of creation.

Specifically, what was God's original plan and where do we find the details outlined? It also seems to me that God is something of a numpty if his plans can be so easily thwarted by a barely intelligent ape.

[brunumb]

All of these horrible things - slavery, human sacrifice, etc. - must be read in the context of a fallen world, as symptoms of a world that has departed from the path that God intended, and as having no part in either the original design or end of creation.

Specifically, what was God's original plan and where do we find the details outlined? It also seems to me that God is something of a numpty if his plans can be so easily thwarted by a barely intelligent ape.

[brunumb]

Does a law that condones slavery have a place in God's ultimate plan? Absolutely not. But in a fallen world where slavery has become the norm, we can perhaps see the wisdom in a law that, while condoning slavery, is more importantly about trying to make life better for slaves, e.g., by granting them rights, or term limits, or days of rest and celebration.

Somehow God managed to lay down the laws about not killing, stealing, coveting, wearing mixed fibres and so on, but neglected to say don't own other people. Perhaps if he had been a bit more specific and forceful, slavery would not have become the norm. Yahweh sure comes across as a rather ineffectual god, particularly when pesky humans seem to thwart his plans at every turn.

[brunumb]

7 "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Are you suggesting there is something wrong or immoral in the above statement, if so what?

A daughter is not the property of her father to be sold, rented out, taken advantage of sexually or whatever. Perhaps JWs have a lower standard of morality that allows them to think otherwise.

[JehovahsWitness]

7 "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Are you suggesting there is something wrong or immoral in the above statement, if so what?

....taken advantage of sexually or whatever. ...

Do you have a scriptural or contextual basis for suggesting that the passage amounted to permission to prostitute ones daughter or an agreement to her being mistreated or abused?






JW

LEVITICUS 19:29 - NWT

“‘Do not dishonor your daughter by making her a prostitute, so that the land may not commit prostitution and be filled with loose morals.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

...SEX, SLAVERY and ... , CHILD ABUSE